Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[TwoSix]

petty i know, but i just want to say:

tomb of battle.

i know most people think it is broken but i find its the perfect counter-argument to people who insist that spellcasting is over powered.

If you think ToB is broken, you probably already believe that casters do not dominate melee. People who know spell casters are overpowered know that ToB is a patch to make melee playable at higher levels.

 

[Manbearcat]

I'm not very comfortable with the argument that high-level wizards are balanced because high-level wizards don't actually exist.

This made me laugh and brought about a Monty Python D&D sketch to mind.

GM: Ok, now that Bob the Wizard has casted Locate Creature, Detect Magic, Clairvoyance you know that the Black Dragon is in his lair which is protected by a trap-filled descent down a sheer vent deep into the earth. What now?

Bob the Wizard: Ok, guys, sit tight in our cozy inn or go get a bear in the tavern while I memorize the spells; Teleport, Summon Monster (whatever), Invisibility Sphere, Spectral Hand, Greater Floating Disk, Shivering Touch and Animate Dead.

Group: .....

GM: .....

Bob the Wizard: Are they memorized yet?

GM: Uh, I guess.

Bob the Wizard: Ok, I teleport to the vent entrance, float down the trap filled vent, never touching the walls...invisibly...because yeah. Spectral Hand is ready to go when I get to the bottom. When I see the dragon, I Shivering Touch his Dex to 0 (no save) from waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over here with my Spectral Hand. Summon Monster to coup de gras him so I don't have to get involved with that messy business and I can just check out the shiny. Oh crap. I forgot to bring Jack the Fighter so he could make himself useful by hauling up all of this loot on my disc. Oh wait. Nevermind. My giant undead dragon minion can do that for me. I Animate Dead this giant dragon because what self-respecting wizard doesn't have an undead dragon minion?

Jack the Fighter: Uh, the odds of you existing is pretty slim Bob. I'd say 1 in 1000000. What say you GM?

GM: You know Bob, Jack is right. Let me roll percentile dice. On a 100 you exist. Drat, 42. Poof. You don't exist. Alright, the rest of you guys, what do you do about this dragon that you don't know where is nor know anything about his lair?

Group: (In unison) WHERE IS THE MERCHANT IN THE TAVERN THAT WANTS US TO GUARD HIS CARAVAN ON THE BANDIT-INFESTED TRADE ROUTE?

 

[Ranes]

I have wondered about this as well. He seems to think all wizards are as dysfunctional as like Raistlin Majere, ignoring ones like Merlin, Gandalf, and Prospero.

Prospero wasn't dysfunctional? Have you never seen Forbidden Planet?

 

[MJS]

Bob, the Dragon has magic resistance, and made its roll. It also smelled you coming. You better roll initiative. What was your B-plan?

 

[Dandu]

Since when do you roll for Magic Resistance?

Anyways, Black Dragons have Spell Resistance, which means that it would be wise to invest in Assay Spell Resistance, at the very least, to penetrate it. Fortunately, it is on the wizard spell list.

Covering up the scent could be achieved with Prestidigitation, and winning initiative, if it came to that, can be handled with Nerveskitter and/or Celerity, though at this point the amount of spells you need to pull off makes throwing the fighter at the problem and attractive solution - or, at least, a terrific distraction.

 

[TwoSix]

Bob the Wizard: Ok, I teleport to the vent entrance, float down the trap filled vent, never touching the walls...invisibly...because yeah. Spectral Hand is ready to go when I get to the bottom. When I see the dragon, I Shivering Touch his Dex to 0 (no save) from waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over here with my Spectral Hand. Summon Monster to coup de gras him so I don't have to get involved with that messy business and I can just check out the shiny. Oh crap. I forgot to bring Jack the Fighter so he could make himself useful by hauling up all of this loot on my disc. Oh wait. Nevermind. My giant undead dragon minion can do that for me. I Animate Dead this giant dragon because what self-respecting wizard doesn't have an undead dragon minion?

And remember, you can do all this while safe in your sanctum because you're Astral Projected.

 

[MJS]

Whatever, Bob. Guess what, you never did memorize those spells. The party was attacked in the night by a pack of Moon Demons. The fighters and clerics were able stand their ground...Bob...fought valiantly...
After recouping in town, they are able to hire a couple of wizards to serve as spellthrowers while the fighters, once again, save the day and slay the dragon. : )

 

[Dandu]

Too bad the dragon's magic resistance means those blasting spells were ineffective, so the fighter had to face him down in a duel. However, the fighter's low will save means that the dragon's frightful presence made the fighter cry like a little girl, which enabled the dragon to bite his head clean off.

See what happens in the land of make believe?

Now, let us act like gentlemen and put aside the snark. I propose we build actual 10th level characters to examine their respective capabilities against, say, a CR 11 Adult black dragon. This might yield valuable insight.

 

[Manbearcat]

Too bad the dragon's magic resistance means those blasting spells were ineffective, so the fighter had to face him down in a duel. However, the fighter's low will save means that the dragon's frightful presence made the fighter cry like a little girl, which enabled the dragon to bite his head clean off.

See what happens in the land of make believe?

Now, let us act like gentlemen and put aside the snark.

I don't think anyone is being snarky.

> Original poster disputes power disparity between fighter/spellcaster using various setting presuppositions (one of which being rarity).
> TwoSix makes note that he isn't comfortable with "Theoretical high level spellcaster not existing by setting fiat" as class balance means.
> This inspires a funny (I thought at least) Bugs Bunny/Monty Python satire of what that might look like in game were it to come to fruition.
> MJS disputes the anecdote by way of magic (presumably spell) resistance and dragon smelling Wizard.

Of note, I didn't canvas either the spell resistance aspect nor the scent aspect as both are pretty trivial (prestidigitation as you mentioned and there are plenty of other more mundane answers) or I could have just gone with some more spells or a different mode of extra-planar entry into the lair. As to the spell penetration issue, again, quite trivial. Most "near-level" spellcaster checks to overcome SR are about 50/50. There are tons of ways to jack that up (Assay as you mention), True Casting, Arcane Mastery, (Greater) Spell Penetration, Dweomer's Essence, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Strand of Prayer Breads, Robe of Archmagi, etc.

Regardless, overt Dragon Slaying isn't really where a Wizard shines (which is frightening I suppose). Its when you get into the really nasty misdirection, finesse stuff where things go pear-shaped.

 

[MichaelSomething]

As always, there are many factors that equate into this discussion...

1. While Wizard spells are frankly bonkers if used correctly, they still must be used correctly. An optimally played wizard can wreck a campaign, but many are not. If your group contains players who don't know how to fully use the system, consider yourself lucky.

2. While many people feel wizards and fighters are balanced based on world/game assumptions, it assume that everyone follows the same world/game assumptions. If you play the game with the base assumptions, wizards can easily dominate. To balance wizards, you must activity push against the game to do so.

3. Levels count. If a 5th level wizard is wrecking, the player is cheating the game. If a 15th level wizard isn't wrecking, the player is cheating himself.