Fighting from the second line.

[Darklone]

When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.

So, an opponent enjoys cover if you hack at him with your polearm while standing behind your strong big buddy but you can't hit him.

Halfling: He's well advised to get some throwing weapons.
Druid: I see no reason why he/she shouldn't be in melee if he wishes so. Flameblade/Barkskin or the abovementioned Produce Flame are nice. Or he could go for archer... our groups archer is a druid, she just dumped all her feats into archery goodness.

 

[Boss]

Clerics and Druids second-line... I think not!

We are currently playing a campaign set in ancient earth w/ a fantasy twist in which I play a cleric of Thor. Every other combat, I have been in the thich of battle, swinging a hammer and taking on the biggest and baddest opponent I can find. Last night though, I was forced to stay in the back thanks to a high powered blade barrier cast in the middle of our group on the first round of combat (before my initiative). I found out something very important... Clerics (and Druids) can cast spells from the background!!!!

Some of the things clerics can do to aid up front are Summon Monster/Nature's Ally... give flanking bonuses to those in the front and use your summoned creatures to disrupt enemy spellcasters (I used Summon Monster II to bring 3 Celestial Monkeys... we fell out when the opposing cleric tumbled away from the monkeys, only to be struck by flung poo and disrupting his spell on a concentration roll of 1). You can cast dispel magic to remove any protections your opponents have and get rid of their summoned allies. Casting Silence on a front warrior or rogue allows them to get close to spellcasters and get rid of their spellcasting abilities. All kinds of options are available to the 2nd line spellcasters.

For me, I am going back to laying waste with my warhammer!!!!!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You don't fight all of your battles in 10-foot corridors, do you? When there's room to maneuver, armoured characters (cleric, druid) can wade into melee...

We definitely don't fight all our battles in corridors. The DM has been great about mixing up the battle terrain, and we've had encounters on wide-open prairie. But those battles don't really concern me. With room to maneuver, all the players can contribute however they like. The options, like the ground, are wide-open.

However, the game is shaping up to be a more traditional game (by majority request,) so we've had our fair share of dungeon crawls, and I expect that to continue. And when talking with some of the other players after our last session (in the temple of Chaos) it seems as if some of the other players would have liked to be more active in combat. I myself play the paladin, and have had no shortage of things to do in combat, but it's not the same for everyone in the party, so I'm looking for ways to remedy that.

As for "armored characters wading into melee" both the cleric and the druid have good ACs, but their hp aren't on-par with the fighter/paladin. The main problem is that "wading into melee" often seems like a deathwish.

For instance, in our last session, we booted open a door to find about eight hobgoblins inside, one of them a shaman casting Scorching Ray. The paladin and fighter blocked the doorway and proceeded to bash hobs as they approached, while the ranger fired into the room to attack the shaman. Our DM--being the evil, evil man that he is--repeatedly suggested that people could charge into the room, but from our perspective doing so was suicide, since it'd open a PC up to attack from a half-dozen hobgoblins at once. Hence, the PCs in the background find themselves with little to do.

And this is pretty much our go-to plan in the dungeon crawl thus far. So I'm hoping to come up with ways to improve it so that everyone feels like they're contributing.

And finally, I advise the non-warriors not to get all hung up on dealing damage in combat. They'll just be disappointed as they fall further and further behind the fighter in that department. The cleric ought to be casting buff spells on the front-liners (if he didn't have a chance to do so before the battle) and curing spells to keep them on their feet. And when you run into undead, he gets to be the hero.

The druid should be summoning a beastie or two in every fight. Even when "nature's allies" aren't very strong, they divide the enemies' attention and provide flanking bonuses.

It's not all about doing damage. It's about doing something constructive in the confined space of the traditional dungeon-crawl. Thus far, the only buff spells the cleric has cast have been on himself. Our cleric does have an 18 strength, though, so if there's room, he's a great melee combatant. But when there isn't room, he takes a back seat to the fighter and paladin. I'm going to suggest the longspear to him, though, so that may solve that problem.

As for the druid, well, she knows about Summon Nature's Ally, but she often forgets in the heat of combat. Fair enough, she's new to the game. She'd also like to mix it up in melee more than she can. Unfortunately, since a druid doesn't get proficiency with the longspear, it looks like spells are her best, and only, second line option...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Assuming that you really do want useful melee combat tactics for the non-combat indivuals in a limited space...

This is exactly what I'm looking for.

Try using reach weapons (longspears are best, since they are simple weapons), in conjunction with the Aid Another action. You only have to hit an AC 10 (14 with cover), and it gives those front liners a +2 to either attack or AC. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

This is a great idea. I'd already thought of longspears, but was figuring they'd be only marginally effective with the -4 to hit from cover. But using them with Aid Another makes it a very successful strategy. I'm definitely going to pass this on!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If fighting in such confined spaces is relatively common (would definately be a good tactic if you have many dungeoncrawls), then have the others get ahold of stuff to throw / lob over the heads of the warriors:
- flasks of oil / greek fire
- thunderstones
- caltrops

Get bows / slings etc. themselves.

We all have ranged weapons, but the problem is that attacking over our allies means a -4 from cover, and often another -4 for firing into melee (our ranger is the only PC twinked for ranged combat.) And none of us are going to get past that -8 to do anything useful. If I'm not mistaken, flasks of alchemist's fire, etc., are thrown weapons, which also count as ranged weapons, so we're back to the -8.

Also, it depends a bit on the way you DM. Using the official rules and miniatures, it would seem that the Tanks can just stand there and not be dislodged.

Well, I'm one of the players in this scenario (the paladin), but I can say that our DM already makes good use of the Bull Rush and Overrun rules. His baddies know full well that if they can break through the front line, the tender wizard and (somewhat) tender druid are vulnerable in the back. So far (owing to the fact that the paladin has a 17 strength, the fighter an 18,) we haven't been dislodged.

When we are dislodged, I'm sure the second line will have a lot to occupy them! But I'm hoping to develop some tactics that we can use as a standard operating procedure, so the second line doesn't have to wait until things are going wrong before they get some action.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Everyone who expects to FIGHT in combat (rather than cast spells) should have at least three weapons in his inventory: One melee weapon, one reach weapon, and one missile weapon.

If your cleric and druid lack these things, then the simple answer is to GET THEM.

Before this current campaign, none of my characters have ever needed a reach weapon, for the simple reason that in the past I've played in smaller groups where you could easily either charge something and whack it with your melee weapon, or find an angle to fire off your ranged weapon.

But with seven PCs, I'm forced to agree with you. My paladin will be picking up a guisarme as soon as he can. And I'll be suggesting to the others that they pick up reach weapons as well.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

They're support melee guys, right? Well, then they should support. And when the front line doesn't need support, then they don't need it. Take a break. Put some skills in Diplomacy and try to avoid fighting encounters all the time.

While yes, this makes sense, in play it's not very fun to sit at the table twiddling your thumbs while other players are exchanging blows with the enemy. This is what happened a bit in our last session, and what I'm trying to find a way to avoid.

And if you don't want to go toe-to-toe, then set up in flanking position and Aid Another. Since you're just harassing the bad guy and not hitting him, his attention shouldn't be on you (and if it is, the DM had better have a good reason).

The problem is room. If we have open space, then everyone can attack or aid as it suits them and the situation. Our cleric is actually an excellent melee combatant (he put an 18 into strength and took Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword,) but with no room to maneuver, people are getting stuck.

As the game progresses the casters should come into their own though; at higher levels casters are more and more able to determine the time and place of combat so this imbalance should even out... but you must be willing to wait a few levels.

I agree that at mid to high levels, these problems will be relatively nonexistant. The wizard will have many spells and most likely a Wand of Scorching Ray. The druid will be wildshaping and tossing Flame Strikes. But we're only 3rd-level, and it's going to take a while to get to that point. I'd like to try and find ways for our second line to contribute (and thus have more fun) now, rather than tell them to tough it out because it gets better later.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Hmmm. If it were me, I'd find a way through the doors that have been sealed for centuries and put my back to the temple altar of chaos incarnate form a thin red line and face the hordes of goblinoids head on like real heroes!

Yes...but you're the same guy who encouraged our wizard to move into the room filled with hobgoblins. Again, and again, and again.

Bad DM! No cookie for you!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Some of the things clerics can do to aid up front are Summon Monster/Nature's Ally... give flanking bonuses to those in the front and use your summoned creatures to disrupt enemy spellcasters

Cool. I'd forgotten that clerics get the various Summon spells as well. I'm not sure exactly what spells our cleric usually prepares, but I may suggest he take a look at the Summon spells as a contingency for when he can't get to the action directly. At worst, he can always swap them for healing later on.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Druid: I see no reason why he/she shouldn't be in melee if he wishes so. Flameblade/Barkskin or the abovementioned Produce Flame are nice. Or he could go for archer... our groups archer is a druid, she just dumped all her feats into archery goodness.

When we have the space, our druid definitely is encouraged to go into melee. She has an 18 AC, so she's got a fair defense, though her standard scimitar isn't that great. I'll suggest Flameblade to her as well, as an alternate melee weapon for when she does get in there. Hopefully, Produce Flame and Flaming Sphere will work to help her participate for when she can't get in there, since druids aren't proficient with any reach weapons.