Fighting from the second line.

[Evilhalfling]

We all have ranged weapons, but the problem is that attacking over our allies means a -4 from cover, and often another -4 for firing into melee (our ranger is the only PC twinked for ranged combat.) And none of us are going to get past that -8 to do anything useful.

This is the same rule, and it only applies once. The -4 from firing into meele means that you "aim carefully to avoiding shooting your friend" (pg 140 PH)
thus avoiding the chance of striking the cover.

I IMC this can't be done, I use give a single +4 to AC to the target, and use the rules for striking the cover instead of the target. I actually enjoy pcs and npcs having friendly fire problems. It happens most often to stupied humanoids.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

This is the same rule, and it only applies once. The -4 from firing into meele means that you "aim carefully to avoiding shooting your friend" (pg 140 PH)
thus avoiding the chance of striking the cover.

No, I am fairly sure you are mistaken here. There are two mechanics at work, firing into melee, and firing through an ally's space, and they can operate independently or together.

You can fire into melee while not firing through an ally's space (say your ally is in the square opposite you), and you take a -4 for firing into melee. Similarly, if you fire through an ally's space at an enemy fifty yards off (who is not in melee with anyone), your enemy gains a +4 cover bonus to AC provided by your ally.

If you fire at an enemy in melee, and your ally is also between you and the enemy, you take a -4 penalty to your attack because you are firing into melee, and your enemy gains a +4 to AC from cover.

Precise Shot can negate the -4 penalty for firing into melee, but your target still gains a +4 bonus to AC if you fire through an ally's square.

Has this changed in 3.5? If so, a citation would be great, because I wasn't aware that it had...

 

[Len]

Thus far, the only buff spells the cleric has cast have been on himself.

He should definitely be casting bull's strength on you or the fighter sometimes. If necessary, give him subtle hints to remind him. "*snort* *snort* moooooo"

Not saying you shouldn't take all the combat advice, but I find tactics to be even more fun when everyone has a different, distinct role to play. Just thinking about this makes me want to play a cleric or druid.

Precise Shot can negate the -4 penalty for firing into melee, but your target still gains a +4 bonus to AC if you fire through an ally's square.

Yes, that's the way my group reads it as well.

 

[Saeviomagy]

You can fire into melee while not firing through an ally's space (say your ally is in the square opposite you), and you take a -4 for firing into melee. Similarly, if you fire through an ally's space at an enemy fifty yards off (who is not in melee with anyone), your enemy gains a +4 cover bonus to AC provided by your ally.

Has this changed in 3.5? If so, a citation would be great, because I wasn't aware that it had...

As far as I understand, you are correct - cover AND firing into melee penalties/bonuses both apply.

However note that in 3.5, hitting the cover is an optional rule.

Finally - you did note that druids get longspear as a valid weapon choice, right?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

As far as I understand, you are correct - cover AND firing into melee penalties/bonuses both apply.

Right, which is also what 3.5's Improved Precise Shot feat is for, I'd say. Glad I've got this bit right. With the change to 3.5, I find myself second-guessing myself more than ever.

However note that in 3.5, hitting the cover is an optional rule.

I'm pretty sure our DM has chosen not to use this optional rule, though I'll double-check before I go hog-wild with the reach weapons. I seem to remember that in 3.0, though, reach weapons were exempt from this anyway, since the part of the weapon that might strike an ally is the haft. Does anyone remember such a rule?

Finally - you did note that druids get longspear as a valid weapon choice, right?

The copy of the 3.5 SRD I downloaded way back when 3.5 first came out reads:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below).

Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description) Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.

A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

Has there been errata on this?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

He should definitely be casting bull's strength on you or the fighter sometimes. If necessary, give him subtle hints to remind him. "*snort* *snort* moooooo"

I would, except that I don't want to step on the player's toes too much. I already find myself correcting him at times, probably more often than he'd like, because I'm more familiar with the 3.x rules than he is (he's played a lot of D&D, but this is his first 3.x game.) I'd rather not try and tell him out to cast his spells as well. And in all fairness, he's got good armor, good hp, and an 18 strength. So if he wants to cast Bull's Strength on himself and wade into melee, more power to him.

Not saying you shouldn't take all the combat advice, but I find tactics to be even more fun when everyone has a different, distinct role to play. Just thinking about this makes me want to play a cleric or druid.

This is true. And in some ways, I think it might have been better if I'd played the wizard/cleric of the group. But I'm having fun with my pally (I really love the Knight-in-Shining-Armor shtick,) and our cleric and wizard are having fun casting whatever they decide to cast, so it's working out all right. I'm not really worried about maximizing our party, because with several beginners in the mix that's really not likely to happen, so much as just giving everyone enough options so that we all feel like we're participating.

 

[frankthedm]

The copy of the 3.5 SRD I downloaded way back when 3.5 first came out reads:Has there been errata on this?

Nope. 3.5 tore the longspear from the grasp of the druid along with the weapon restrictions.

3.0 SRD
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, halfspear, longspear, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, and sling. Their spiritual oaths prohibit them from using weapons other than these. They are proficient with light and medium armors but are prohibited from wearing metal armor (thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor). They are skilled with shields but must use only wooden ones.

 

[Kalendraf]

My weekly campaign features 6 characters, 3 of which are traditional melee types (Fighter/Barb, Monk, Cleric). The other 3 (Bard, Druid, Rogue) are often forced to fight from the back row. The bard has a bow, and the rogue has both a bow and a spiked chain w/ 10' reach. The druid doesn't have much in the way of ranged or reach weapons, but he often shapeshifts to a bird form to fly up and get into a better position for spellcasting.

With 7 characters, I would guess you probably want 2 or 3 of them to have ranged or reach weapons as a primary attack option. The usefulness of each will depend on the terrain and range that you are fighting from.

In regards to the rules, you are correct that reach attacks thru occupied squares suffer from the -4 cover penalty. In my campaign we use the optional chance to hit cover rule only with ranged attacks. Also, you are correct about the cover penalty and shooting into combat penalties stacking. It's a whopping -8 if you shoot into combat thru an occupied square. Anyone that wants to be an archer is well advised to take Precise Shot.

 

[Victim]

Arrange your fighting line along the diagonals, rather than in a straight line.
Instead of

|XXX| or|XX| try to arrange your guys like this in narrow corridors:

|-X-| or |X-X| or |X-|
|XXX| or |XXX| or |XX|

That way, your secondary melee characters can hit from the diagonal squares so more attackers can be involved. Of course, enemies can involve more attackers at the same time as well, but with healing on your point guy and possible rotation, you should be able to hold up.

Also, coordinate your moves. Sure, if one person charges into the room full of monsters, then they can all beat on him. But if you can get your melee characters to charge in at once after everyone delays, then they can't focus all on one guy, you can bring more of your firepower to bear, and you have a better chance of quickly dealing with the shaman.

 

[smetzger]

You can 'leapfrog'...

Fighter kills guy in front of him but does not advance.
Second row fighter moves through his buddy and attacks the second row of the enemy.