D&D General Fighting Law and Order

[AbdulAlhazred]

Given that there are RPGs with no GM at all? Yes.

Sure but given that the general topic seems to be about division of authority in RPGs and between players and GMs specifically, GM-less games didn't seem to be part of the discussion. Nobody has really talked about them at least.

 

[Lanefan]

I think @pemerton is referring to the end of the paragraph, where @Faolyn says, "Or do you leave it up to PCs to describe?" This would have to be players, or the characters are having a real interesting in game conversation.

Perhaps, but that wasn't the bit that was specifically called out.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

My business partner uses emacs in Evil Mode, so the emacs and vi people both hate him.

I use vscode, as is appropriate for anyone who isn't an ancient relic of a forgotten age.

UR ! Coder unless EDITOR='sed'. Please show your FORTH compiler implementation to vet claim!

 

[hawkeyefan]

The choice was there from the beginning. You had to have arrived at the doors from somewhere.

That's why it's a crappy example. Everything I said was about blind choices. You need to be informed to make a meaningful choice. So either information or at least the chance to gain information needs to exist.

It's binary in the sense that either you have it or you don't, but if you do have it then there are subjective degrees of it. What you perceive to be low agency someone else might perceive as medium or high.

Then it's not binary. Binary consists of two states, yes or no. Not degrees of each. That's what makes it binary.

In essence, we all have our own preferences on what we want out of our agency and those can differ dramatically. What doesn't meet our personal criteria would be ranked lower and that which does meet it would be ranked higher.

Just because I have high agency in a traditional game doesn't mean that @pemerton would view his agency as being high in the same game, and vice versa. They are different games and value different aspects of agency.

Preferences will vary, absolutely. But I don't think agency really does. It's more that your preference doesn't require as much agency as someone like @pemerton .

Personally, I like games with varying degrees of player agency involved. I don't feel the need to try and claim they all have the same level of agency... the same freedom for players to influence what the game is about.

I don't know enough about his style of game to give the pros and cons. I'm also having a tough time coming up with strengths for traditional play which cannot also being accomplished in other ways for non-traditional play. It seems to me that strengths/weaknesses would be better done looking at individual systems to see how they go about meeting their design goals, than looking at the playstyles themselves.

Sure, I think the more specific we get about this stuff, the better it is. @uzirath posted some examples from his trad game which were interesting. There have been some others. But most of the examples given are hypotheticals, and often incomplete or vague (like the two doors).

I think if they do return, which I wouldn't were I them, they will have chosen the railroad which makes it acceptable.

Acceptable in that they know what they're getting into and aren't objecting, yeah. Based on how it sounds, I don't know if all of them will be happy with the results.

I don't think it's a quality of the game at all, though. It's a quality of the person playing. If I have high agency in a traditional game and Pemerton has low agency in the same game, and vice versa for us in his style of game, then it can't be a quality of the game. Agency has to be a quality of the player or group, dependent on what he/they want out of agency.

Max, it's okay for games to have differing amounts of agency.

Then there's not much point in bringing up agency in a discussion. Just accept that people who enjoy playing with styles other than your own have lots of agency in the games they play in, regardless of whether you enjoy that sort of game or not.

If they have sufficient agency to be happy, then that's all they need.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Perhaps, but that wasn't the bit that was specifically called out.

Isn't it, though? The second paragraph is about describing the tower. There's no objection to saying the PCs enter the tower.

By "PCs" do you mean players? Otherwise what you ask makes no sense to me.

Assuming that that is what you mean, as I've already stated - multiple times, I believe - the GM does the framing in ENworld. But suppose that it had already been established, say via a Wises check, that Evard's entrance hall is painted all in crimson red, then of course the GM would include that in their description.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This is interesting. Suppose the players want to play a traditional style game. They want to explore the world and have it revealed to them by the DM as they go. They want to explore dungeons that they didn't help bring into being. And so on. Wouldn't getting into a game like that give them a lot of say over what the game is about since it chases what the players are interested in?

It seems to me that a traditional player in a game of @pemerton's style would have little say and it would not chase what that player is interested in, just like traditional play doesn't give Pemerton what he is interested in giving him little say in a game of that style.

Similar to the above, if the player wants to play in a traditional style game, then he is getting his say by having the PC knowledge figured out in traditional manner.

Same as above.

It seems to me that it really is one thing, Playstyle preference. If you are playing a game that runs the style of your preference, you have a lot of say. If you are playing a game that is of the other playstyle, then you don't have a lot of say.

Well, how about a Dungeon World player who wants to dungeon crawl? Your motivation is loot and power, mostly. You answer questions about where you are going and what you are doing with 'heading to the dungeon' etc. I bet you get a pretty much stock dungeon crawl experience, especially if the other players are also up for that. Granted the GM might ask you a fairly open ended question here and there. I bet you can answer them in a way that doesn't usually involve adding some big things to the fiction. Even in trad games you probably expect some questions about your character etc.

 

[Lanefan]

Isn't it, though? The second paragraph is about describing the tower. There's no objection to saying the PCs enter the tower.

The first clause you quoted directly followed the sentence "The PCs enter the tower" from ( @Faolyn ?) thus seemd to be in response to that, hence my call-out.

Had it been in response to the other piece where the PCs have a conversation then less...but still no...problem; as while the PCs having a conversation obviously requires the players to speak, one can still say they are speaking in character and thus simply mirroring what the PCs are doing/saying in the fiction.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

So "They're about to enter a wizard's tower. There are spellbooks there" is... too much?

I kind of have to wonder why Burning Wheel isn't a GMless game. Why not have everyone make a character and then let the other players adjudicate any questions that come up, such as "did Thurgon find any spellbooks when he searched?" That would make a whole lot more sense for the style of game you're talking about.

Not necessarily. The spell books could be there in plain sight. Then some other factor will provide the dramatic tension. Maybe a terrible curse is laid on them. Will Aramina pay the price? Or is the cost too high? How does this alter her beliefs?

 

[Faolyn]

Not necessarily. The spell books could be there in plain sight. Then some other factor will provide the dramatic tension. Maybe a terrible curse is laid on them. Will Aramina pay the price? Or is the cost too high? How does this alter her beliefs?

Not necessarily what? That it could be a GMless game?

 

[Irlo]

Not necessarily what? That it could be a GMless game?

It’s not necessarily too much to say that there are spell books in the wizard’s tower.