D&D 5E Fighting Style for Melee Knife/Dagger Use

[Esker]

Now, hidden out there somewhere might be a tweet or SA note to the contrary, which is cool if there is

There is

The fact that the phrasing is different between the first two benefits and the third is a signal of intent.

As to the longsword, nothing in the rules allows a longsword to be thrown, thus you can't make a ranged attack with it, unless the DM allows you to do so as an improvised weapon. However since it has no listed range, the "attack at long range w/o disadvantage" clause is meaningless. If the DM wanted to allow you to throw a longsword as an improvised weapon, then I suppose sharpshooter would allow you to ignore cover.

 

[Ancalagon]

... or you could play the GLOG, where a dagger does 1d6 dmg and few weapons do more

Seriously, a dagger is an 8-12 inch blade of steel. Why does it do less damage than a rapier again?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yeah, no. I’m not going to rehash the whole argument, but feel free to check out Crawford’s Sage Advice ruling on the matter.

Any ranged attack made with a weapon is a ranged weapon attack, but is only an attack with a ranged weapon of it is made with a weapon in the Ranged category.

This is related to the fact that Unarmed Strikes arent weapons, but are used to make melee weapon attacks.

Yeah, I knew you would go to the unarmed strikes thing, but since it was after 1:30 AM when I posted, I was too tired to bother addressing that last night.

Unarmed Strikes are a special melee weapon attack. The only reason they had to alter it was because they removed Unarmed Strikes from the PHB Weapons Table:

Oh, look, there it was... Too bad, it made it all so much easier and you didn't need to make the exception:

Of course, they did it because they didn't want certain features working with Unarmed Strikes.

Now, he had to explain it further in the SA. I found it for you, didn't want you to have to exert yourself:

So, clearly he says "Similarly, 'ranged weapon attack' means a ranged attack with a weapon."

Except there is that little thing at the end, that "bit of wording minutia". They have never, as far as I can recall, written "melee-weapon attack" with a hyphen in any text. Nor have they written "ranged-weapon attack".

So, again there are features that Crawford doesn't want to work with melee weapons used as ranged attacks, such as the -5/+10 of Sharpshooter, right? Big surprise. Just like he didn't want some features working with Unarmed Strikes. Considering his track record for reversing his position on things, I wouldn't rely on Crawford.

Finally, consider this:

A Fighter with a blowgun and a Fighter with a handaxe both have Sharpshooter. They both gain the first features, so ignore disadvantage for Long range and 1/2- and 3/4-cover, but only the Fighter with the blowgun can use the -5/+10 feature. A 1 damage blowgun can do 11 points, but the handaxe can't... So, that makes lots of sense...

Since you don't want to go over this again, you don't have to reply. This is more for everyone. As I have stated repeatedly, I am fine with SS working with thrown weapons, but the language dictates otherwise. Only the "special" considerations make it "official", but then the feat only half-works for thrown weapons, which is a ridiculous IMO. These silly nuances of attack language could easily have been avoided.

Besides, these long posts are startin' t' aggrevate me.

 

[Esker]

@dnd4vr, this last post confuses me. That "ranged weapon attack" means "ranged attack with a weapon" is right there. It confirms what @doctorbadwolf and I have been saying -- the first two benefits (but not the third) work with thrown weapons -- and contradicts what you said earlier.

BTW, the GWM feat has a parallel structure. Only the -5/+10 clause requires a heavy two-handed weapon.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I accomplish the knife fighter thing for the player who wants it the easiest way of all.

Player figures out what is the best damage they would ordinarily do for how they wish to fight based on the best weapon they could legally take for the job. Then they use those dice numbers and fluff the weapon that accomplishes it however the hell they want.

Player wants to dual-wield a pair of sickles? Great! They use the mechanics of dual-wielding a pair of scimitars and they call what they are holding sickles. Or in this case... player wants to dual-wield a pair of knives? Then they use the mechanics of shortswords and call them knives. And no additional fighting style is necessary.

The only time I'd ever make a fighting style would be if I wanted the style to have a new mechanic they wouldn't ordinarily get just by taking a different weapon. And additional damage to make a weapon merely on par with other weapons the player could already take wouldn't be that.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Knife Fighter
When using a dagger you gain a +1 bonus to hit and deal 2d4 damage instead of 1d4, and when you grapple a creature you can make a free attack on that creature with advantage.

Design notes:
2d4 is close to 1d4+2, but it is doubled on criticals unlike static damage bonuses. It also works with dual-wielding or dueling style (if you stack styles). OTOH, if you go knife+free hand, you can use the free hand to grapple and get an attack anyhow. The +1 to hit makes it extremely tempting for rogues, who want to connect more than anything.

This also permits the two-knife build that throws one knife, then grabs and stabs, etc.

This is brutal, I like it. I'd specify that it applied when using a single dagger in one hand, and maybe that the free attack with grapple applied every turn they were grappled.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@dnd4vr, this last post confuses me. That "ranged weapon attack" means "ranged attack with a weapon" is right there. It confirms what @doctorbadwolf and I have been saying -- the first two benefits (but not the third) work with thrown weapons -- and contradicts what you said earlier.

BTW, the GWM feat has a parallel structure. Only the -5/+10 clause requires a heavy two-handed weapon.

Sure, I get all that. I was just pointing out how silly the distinction is IMO. It is another issue with how the books and features were written. To make the distinction between a ranged weapon attack and an attack with a ranged weapon and such... oy.

It creates strange things, like throwing a longsword. Even if it is an improvised weapon (which has a range of 20/60 incidentally) means you could throw a longsword up to 60 feet without disadvantage and ignore most cover.

But the point is moot. As I've said I am fine with it working with thrown weapons, even the last feature, since it doesn't make sense not to IMO.

At any rate, time to work on other things.

 

[Larnievc]

Due to the nature of rules a dagger is the weakest weapon around, something that's only used as a last resort weapon by most classes, and only effective (in it's versatility as something that can be thrown) by Rogues and Monks of a high enough level. But a dagger in the hands of someone who knows how to use one effectively can be a very deadly. I don't want to bother for now in a Fighter subclass that specializes in dagger fighting. So my ideas so far are.

Knife Fighting
When attacking with a dagger in melee it does 1d6 damage, while grappling an opponent the dagger does 1d8 damage instead.

I made up a feat that lets a dagger wielder do 2d4. Seemed okay.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There is

The fact that the phrasing is different between the first two benefits and the third is a signal of intent.

As to the longsword, nothing in the rules allows a longsword to be thrown, thus you can't make a ranged attack with it, unless the DM allows you to do so as an improvised weapon. However since it has no listed range, the "attack at long range w/o disadvantage" clause is meaningless. If the DM wanted to allow you to throw a longsword as an improvised weapon, then I suppose sharpshooter would allow you to ignore cover.

Improvised ranged weapon attacks have a range of 20/60. That includes throwing Melee weapons.
It would, oddly, only do 1d4+strength damage.

It’s in the PHB, under Improvised Weapons.

 

[NotAYakk]

Improvised ranged weapon attacks have a range of 20/60. That includes throwing Melee weapons.
It would, oddly, only do 1d4+strength damage.

It’s in the PHB, under Improvised Weapons.

And get +2 to hit from archery style?

Which means sharpshooter dagger throwers should use strength and throw the daggers as improvised weapons. If an improved dagger throw resembles a dagger, you are considered proficient and can take a -5/+10 sharpshooter benefit even!

(this is a joke)