Fighting Styles: Which option to choose?

[kenjib]

LoneWolf23,

So you gain an extra ability and you require prerequisites to do so?

That's what feats are for. The martial art styles in Quint. Fighter should have been feat chains, don't you think? Every other special ability like those gained for these styles requires that you spend a feat to gain them. How does the game system benefit from this exception here?

In everything other than name, the Mongoose fighting styles are simply feats that a character can take without having to spend a feat slot. Call them "free bonus feats" and people would complain about them more, no? However, all you need to do is change the name for them to be free bonus feats. The mechanics already work that way.

It might get better when they release the revised edition though.


Wil,

I disagree. CR is used to gauge power, not XP. The cases you mention are all exceptional cases.

Furthermore, there are a very limited number of ways in the core rules to gain extra abilities by spending XP. Permanency, wish, and creating magic items. These are all the forte mostly of the wizard (although other classes can create magic items, they don't get bonus feats for item creation). Furthermore, if he wishes to increase the power levels of other characters in the party, he must personally invest the cost himself -- not the person who gains the benefit. Therefore, if the wizard wants to increase overall party power he will fall behind other members of the party. This is a balancing factor that discourages the wizard from overusing this ability. Creating magic items also requires direct feat expenditure as opposed to just prerequisites that already have their own benefits. There are no such balancing factors with the fighting styles. In fact, there is no reason not to take as many styles as possible, so long as they compliment each other, due to the XP momentum accumulation effect I've mentioned above.

What it seems like to me is that there is a small set of exceptional circumstances whereby some characters can burn XP to gain power, with built in checks to limit their use. The fighting styles take this limited area of the rules and expand upon it. I don't think, however, that this is an area of the game that should have been expanded upon -- especially when prestige classes and feat chains were already designed to handle this exact aspect of the game. How does the game benefit from adding this new mechanic instead of using mechanics already in place that would do the job better?

Given the choice of a fighting style mechanic that screws up the CR/EL system and a fighting style mechanic that works just as well but is integrated into the CR/EL system, the choice is a simple one for me to make.

I could also say that an NPC used to be 13th level, but he got level drained too many times and is now 5th level, but since he was 13th level now he's got a wand of finger of death. What party should I put him up against, a level 5 party or a level 13 party? DMs simply have to account for these things when dealing with the villains they create.

This illustrates my point. There are a few cases where the DM needs to micromanage things outside of the CR/EL system. Do we want more of them to have to keep track of? Too many of them and eventually the system no longer works at all.

I would point out, though, that your example above is invalid. The DMG has standards for NPC wealth and that is accounted for in CR calculations. The guidelines are there so you don't have the exact situation you suggest. There are no such guidelines for fighting styles.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Wil,

I disagree. CR is used to gauge power, not XP. The cases you mention are all exceptional cases.

Therefore, if the wizard wants to increase overall party power he will fall behind other members of the party. This is a balancing factor that discourages the wizard from overusing this ability. In fact, there is no reason not to take as many styles as possible, so long as they compliment each other, due to the XP momentum accumulation effect I've mentioned above.

So you are saying that only wizards should be able to expend XP to gain power? I suppose you play a lot of wizards.

I think if you played with fighting schools a bit, you'd see that the XP loss for taking 10 schools would more than outweigh the marginal benefits you would gain for doing so. Also, any DM that allows that is getting what he paid for.

As far as the CR debate you are having, Character Level=experience total=CR, which is why I suggested a CR modifier chart that would essentially be character XP + fighting schools XP = Level for determination of CR. Very simple for even the thickest of DMs. It's really not hard.

How do you resolve the issue of a wizard who constantly crafts magic items in order to stay at 11th level, while he is certainly more powerful than any other 11th level character out there due to his 1,000,000 gp worth of magic items? This is playing by the core rules, mind you, the ones you are defending and saying should be insular.

 

[LoneWolf23]

LoneWolf23,

So you gain an extra ability and you require prerequisites to do so?

That's what feats are for. The martial art styles in Quint. Fighter should have been feat chains, don't you think? Every other special ability like those gained for these styles requires that you spend a feat to gain them. How does the game system benefit from this exception here?

In everything other than name, the Mongoose fighting styles are simply feats that a character can take without having to spend a feat slot. Call them "free bonus feats" and people would complain about them more, no? However, all you need to do is change the name for them to be free bonus feats. The mechanics already work that way.

It might get better when they release the revised edition though.

All right, I see your point. And a very valid point it is. I do own the Swashbuckling Adventures campaign setting rulebook, and I do like the "fighting style as Prestige Class" approach depicted therein. I most especially like the Drexel Swordsman; the abilities granted are mainly related to stances and levels of mastery, which is a very realistic approach.

I still like the styles given in the Quintessential Fighter book, however. Although, now that I think about it, most of them can be converted into Prestige Classes of their own...

 

[kenjib]

So you are saying that only wizards should be able to expend XP to gain power? I suppose you play a lot of wizards.

That is a perk of the class. Furthermore, it is a significant balancing factor that, since only certain classes can do this, they will fall behind other classes in the same party if they do this. This is a disincentive. I've already said this.

I think if you played with fighting schools a bit, you'd see that the XP loss for taking 10 schools would more than outweigh the marginal benefits you would gain for doing so. Also, any DM that allows that is getting what he paid for.

The rules should be balanced for the DM as much as is possible so as to prevent adding the DM workload. Prestige classes for fighting schools create less problems for DMs and provide the same benefits. Problem solved.

As far as the CR debate you are having, Character Level=experience total=CR, which is why I suggested a CR modifier chart that would essentially be character XP + fighting schools XP = Level for determination of CR. Very simple for even the thickest of DMs. It's really not hard.

Yes, one possible solution. Are you saying that I should need to invent house rules to fix material from a book I've purchased?

How do you resolve the issue of a wizard who constantly crafts magic items in order to stay at 11th level, while he is certainly more powerful than any other 11th level character out there due to his 1,000,000 gp worth of magic items? This is playing by the core rules, mind you, the ones you are defending and saying should be insular.

If he is an NPC, according to the rules for balancing CR he does not have 1,000,000 gp worth of magic equipment unless the DM is creating an exceptional circumstance (see previous post). If he is a PC, he is a lower level than everyone else in the group. The average party level will still be higher since other party members are still higher level. The XP escalation problem is thus not as pronounced and he has the dicincentive of falling behind other party members, both of which factors will not occur if all party members can buy power with XP.

 

[kenjib]

I think if you played with fighting schools a bit, you'd see that the XP loss for taking 10 schools would more than outweigh the marginal benefits you would gain for doing so. Also, any DM that allows that is getting what he paid for.

Even at higher levels when the XP cost of 10 schools is a much smaller percentage of the amount needed to gain a level? This system charges for abilities at a constant rate. Whereas abilities granted by level must be "purchase" (through leveling) at an increasing rate. This is yet another problem.

 

[Crothian]

That is a perk of the class. Furthermore, it is a significant balancing factor that, since only certain classes can do this, they will fall behind other classes in the same party if they do this. This is a disincentive. I've already said this.

Well, the perk of the wizard is they get the bonus feats which may be spent on item creation feats. However, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, and Sorcerers can also select these feats. That's 7 of the 11 core classes.

Also, because of the problems with spending XP in this way Wizards has introdiced a rule Variant to have people share XP spending. So, the problem has been addressed and solved.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Even at higher levels when the XP cost of 10 schools is a much smaller percentage of the amount needed to gain a level? This system charges for abilities at a constant rate. Whereas abilities granted by level must be "purchase" (through leveling) at an increasing rate. This is yet another problem.

Let's do some basic math.

XP to get 2nd level: 1,000
XP to take 1st lesson in 10 schools: 1,900
% of level XP: 190%

XP to get 6th level (from 4th): 9,000
XP to take 1st-3rd lessons in 10 schools: 19,000
% of level XP: 211%

XP to get 12th level (from 10th): 21,000
XP to take 1st-6th lessons in 10 schools: 106,400
% of level XP: 500%

Looks to me like the % of XP relative to level is increasing dramatically, not decreasing as you suggested. I'm sorry I didn't provide this basic math in the book. I understand that you are against the idea, but I'd appreciate truthful and honest reasons that we can discuss. When you say things that aren't true, it gives me no incentive to argue with you, and weakens your position significantly.

But, perhaps you just hadn't done the math.

 

[d20Dwarf]

That is a perk of the class. Furthermore, it is a significant balancing factor that, since only certain classes can do this, they will fall behind other classes in the same party if they do this. This is a disincentive. I've already said this.

It actually is an imbalancing factor, but as I said perhaps you like it that way.

The rules should be balanced for the DM as much as is possible so as to prevent adding the DM workload. Prestige classes for fighting schools create less problems for DMs and provide the same benefits. Problem solved.

They also create less opportunity for characters to grow. The more options the better as long as game balance is maintained, which it is easily using this system.

Yes, one possible solution. Are you saying that I should need to invent house rules to fix material from a book I've purchased?

Do you use any rules that aren't specifically stated in the PHB, DMG, or MM?

If he is an NPC, according to the rules for balancing CR he does not have 1,000,000 gp worth of magic equipment unless the DM is creating an exceptional circumstance (see previous post). If he is a PC, he is a lower level than everyone else in the group. The average party level will still be higher since other party members are still higher level. The XP escalation problem is thus not as pronounced and he has the dicincentive of falling behind other party members, both of which factors will not occur if all party members can buy power with XP.

And an NPC will not have 10 fighting schools "according to the rules for balancing CR."

So now you're saying gold is the way you measure a creature's challenge rating.....

 

[kenjib]

Let's do some basic math.

XP to get 2nd level: 1,000
XP to take 1st lesson in 10 schools: 1,900
% of level XP: 190%

XP to get 6th level (from 4th): 9,000
XP to take 1st-3rd lessons in 10 schools: 19,000
% of level XP: 211%

XP to get 12th level (from 10th): 21,000
XP to take 1st-6th lessons in 10 schools: 106,400
% of level XP: 500%

Looks to me like the % of XP relative to level is increasing dramatically, not decreasing as you suggested. I'm sorry I didn't provide this basic math in the book. I understand that you are against the idea, but I'd appreciate truthful and honest reasons that we can discuss. When you say things that aren't true, it gives me no incentive to argue with you, and weakens your position significantly.

But, perhaps you just hadn't done the math.

Why are you increasing the number of sessions that the character is taking as you compare at increasing levels? They are getting more benefit from more sessions. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about getting the same benefit across different levels. Let's fix your basic math:

XP to get 2nd level: 1,000
XP to take 1st lesson in 10 schools: 1,900
% of level XP: 190%

XP to get 6th level (from 4th): 9,000
XP to take 1st lesson in 10 schools: 1,900
% of level XP: 21%

XP to get 12th level (from 10th): 21,000
XP to take 1st lesson in 10 schools: 1,900
% of level XP: 9%

There is almost no reason other than in-game time and DM fiat (both very campaign specific) not to take the 1st lesson in 10 schools at 12th level because the XP cost at that point is minor. At even higher levels the discrepency only gets worse. Yes, there is the limit of time requirement and DM fiat, but I am not a fan of creating additional rules that the DM has to babysit to prevent player exploit. We have more than enough of those in the core rules already.

It actually is an imbalancing factor, but as I said perhaps you like it that way.

I'm afraid I don't understand. I hardly think that the wizard is underpowered (and other than the bard, the other spell casters as well) and that D&D needs to make it easier to proliferate the creation of magic items. Could you clarify how this is imbalancing?

They also create less opportunity for characters to grow. The more options the better as long as game balance is maintained, which it is easily using this system.

D&D is a level based game. You grow by gaining levels. Therefore, you learn to fight better by gaining levels. Therefore you can learn new fighting styles through PRCs. D&D is not a point based game. You do not grow by spending points to gain powers, except with a few uncommon exceptions. That's one of the fundamental design aspects of D&D - possibly even the single most fundamental design aspect.

Do you use any rules that aren't specifically stated in the PHB, DMG, or MM?

Of course I do, but when I use them I like them to save me work, not make more work for me. Re-read by quote, because I'm afraid that you've misunderstood me:

Yes, one possible solution. Are you saying that I should need to invent house rules to fix material from a book I've purchased?

Notice that I said "house rules." You previously suggested a house rule (i.e. not in the Path of the Sword book) to correct a problem that I have with said published book. I buy published products so that I don't have to create house rules. Does that clarify what I was saying?

And an NPC will not have 10 fighting schools "according to the rules for balancing CR."

I would like a reference please. Where does it state that in the rules?

So now you're saying gold is the way you measure a creature's challenge rating.....

Actually, when NPCs are involved, yes it is. I never said anything about creatures. I only discussed NPCs. Refer to the DMG pages 47-58. Most specifically, page 58 Table 2-44: NPC Gear Value.

 

[Xarlen]

So, what stops an NPC wizard from using his item creation feats to create lots of magical items (With the half cost for creating them), spending all that XP, and still being the same CR because he gained all that XP back from doing whatever?