Fighting Styles: Which option to choose?
- Thread starter LoneWolf23
- Start date
I don't like the fighting styles as presented in Quint. Fighter and Path of the Sword. They allow a character to have power in a fashion which does not relate to his level. This goes against the very nature of a level based game and breaks the CR/EL system. For example, I could have two 5th level fighters, and give one of them 10 different fighting schools. Obviously, the characters are not of the same power level. Unfortunately, according to all D&D indicators, they should be.
One might argue that the same could be said of giving the two fighters varying levels of magic items. However, this is not a valid comparison because the game system incorporates guidelines for NPC wealth and magic item quantities for CR accuracy. There are no such rules for the tacked on fighting schools.
I think that prestige classes are the best mechanic for this concept. Frankly, I'm not really sure why those other d20 books decided that they needed to tack on ad hoc bonus systems to the system when there was already a suitable mechanic for this in place.
d20 Swashbuckling Adventures also has a ton of PRC fighting schools, but many of them are oriented around fencing weapons, so the usefulness kind of depends on the type of game you run...
One might argue that the same could be said of giving the two fighters varying levels of magic items. However, this is not a valid comparison because the game system incorporates guidelines for NPC wealth and magic item quantities for CR accuracy. There are no such rules for the tacked on fighting schools.
I think that prestige classes are the best mechanic for this concept. Frankly, I'm not really sure why those other d20 books decided that they needed to tack on ad hoc bonus systems to the system when there was already a suitable mechanic for this in place.
d20 Swashbuckling Adventures also has a ton of PRC fighting schools, but many of them are oriented around fencing weapons, so the usefulness kind of depends on the type of game you run...
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Actually, OA does a bit of the thing for the Samurai class, in the expanded L5R material...there's a different Samurai School for each of the tribes presented, but they all stem from the same base class.
I think you should go with a few feats that "define the style" serving as a prerequisite for a "master of (style)" prestige class that goes into supernatural powers and the like, truly transcendant stuff.
I'm against the QF methods for a few reasons, many of them having to do with qualms about spending XP, and the reasoning that....why the heck would a fighter have to have an exceptional Wisdom to become the master of a style?
If it works for you, go for it, but I'm a fan of the feat chains/PrC style myself, and it's what I would employ if it ever came up in my campaign.
I think you should go with a few feats that "define the style" serving as a prerequisite for a "master of (style)" prestige class that goes into supernatural powers and the like, truly transcendant stuff.
I'm against the QF methods for a few reasons, many of them having to do with qualms about spending XP, and the reasoning that....why the heck would a fighter have to have an exceptional Wisdom to become the master of a style?
If it works for you, go for it, but I'm a fan of the feat chains/PrC style myself, and it's what I would employ if it ever came up in my campaign.
drnuncheon
Explorer
kenjib said:
You could say the same about two 5th level fighters, one with stats of 18, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10 and one with 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 8.
Note that Path of the Sword fighting styles require the expenditure of XP. So the character with 10 fighting schools ought to be much lower level than the character without any (especially since the second and further schools are double cost). I believe mongoose is using a similar mechanic in their revision of TQF.
J
Regarding XP expenditure - once it's gone, it's gone. I can create a 5th level NPC and decide that he already spent 50,000 XP fighting schools, and there's no mechanism provided to account for this. Perhaps a simple solution would have been working out some kind of ECL system using the spent XP. They didn't do that though.
As regards stats, there are point values for equalizing those. Even if my argument here is insufficient though, does one such discrepency make it okay to just keep adding more of them? Should I create an variant rule that lets you arbitrarily add hit dice and BaB at will to characters without a corresponding increase in level? This variant mechanic just opens the door for a breakdown of the system. The premise behind this mechanic is that you can now conceptually add any kind and number of arbitrary bonus you want to any character without accounting for it in the framework of the level system, which was, incidentally, designed to handle precisely these bonuses.
As regards stats, there are point values for equalizing those. Even if my argument here is insufficient though, does one such discrepency make it okay to just keep adding more of them? Should I create an variant rule that lets you arbitrarily add hit dice and BaB at will to characters without a corresponding increase in level? This variant mechanic just opens the door for a breakdown of the system. The premise behind this mechanic is that you can now conceptually add any kind and number of arbitrary bonus you want to any character without accounting for it in the framework of the level system, which was, incidentally, designed to handle precisely these bonuses.
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Consider also, the XP escalation syndrome. Experience award is based on CR relative to party level. A party that defeats on higher CR challenges acquires XP and new levels at a faster pace. Therefore, spending XP to increase your power relative to your level has the side effect of increasing the rate and ease with which you acquire more XP, since you can take on higher CR encounters relative to your level and thus get greater XP awards.
In terms of system analysis, are you really spending XP or just investing it to receive greater returns down the line?
In terms of system analysis, are you really spending XP or just investing it to receive greater returns down the line?
Zerovoid
First Post
kenjib said:
This is exactly how I feel about such things. The DnD rules provide an implicit guarantee that character's of the same level are balanced against each other. Allowing players to acquire abilities independant of this measurement breaks the system for me. As for characters with different stats being unequal, that's why I use point buy, and give players average hit points per hit die, rouned up.
I had the same reaction when I heard about "Prestige Races" or whatever in Oathbound. Spending xp like that just bothers me.
d20Dwarf
Explorer
People that have a problem with XP being used as a measure of a character's power should see the other threads regarding this. In D&D, XP simply IS the barometer against which a character's power is gauged, not levels.
This is evident in that magic items cost XP to create. This is evident in that powerful spells cost XP when they can create permanent changes in a character. The mechanic was simply applied to a different system in Path of the Sword, that of the fighting style.
I could also say that an NPC used to be 13th level, but he got level drained too many times and is now 5th level, but since he was 13th level now he's got a wand of finger of death. What party should I put him up against, a level 5 party or a level 13 party? DMs simply have to account for these things when dealing with the villains they create.
Would it have made the system more complete to add CR modifiers to characters with a certain amount of XP invested in schools? It doesn't seem necessary from a PC's point of view, but it could have given a guide to DMs that can't figure out how much more powerful an NPC is with a school (although if he understands the XP system, he should be able to do so).
This is evident in that magic items cost XP to create. This is evident in that powerful spells cost XP when they can create permanent changes in a character. The mechanic was simply applied to a different system in Path of the Sword, that of the fighting style.
kenjib said:
I could also say that an NPC used to be 13th level, but he got level drained too many times and is now 5th level, but since he was 13th level now he's got a wand of finger of death. What party should I put him up against, a level 5 party or a level 13 party? DMs simply have to account for these things when dealing with the villains they create.
Would it have made the system more complete to add CR modifiers to characters with a certain amount of XP invested in schools? It doesn't seem necessary from a PC's point of view, but it could have given a guide to DMs that can't figure out how much more powerful an NPC is with a school (although if he understands the XP system, he should be able to do so).
LoneWolf23
First Post
I fail to see what's so unbalanced about Martial Arts styles, at least as Quintessential Fighter handles them. You can't advance in the style until you've gained the right feats or sufficient ranks in a few skills; that automatically restricts PC applicants to those of certain levels or higher to begin with.
For exemple, the Desert Scorpion style of twin scimitar fighting has as prerequisites: BAB+3 or more, HP 30+, Fort +4, Will+3, and the Feats Ambidexterity, Dodge, Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Focus (scimitar or longsword). So already, the lowest applicant for this school would be a level four human fighter. Fighters of other races would need a higher level, and other classes would need very high levels to meet all the prerequisites. And that's just to be an Initiate in this style. Further levels require higher BAB bonuses and more Feats.
Furthermore, all Martial Arts Style abilities are treated as Extraordinary abilities. Essentially, they're like built-in magic items. I don't see what's wrong with allowing Fighter-type characters to boost their abilities in this way, rather then in just piling up magic items over magic items.
And if game balance is an issue, just look at the martial artist's ability, determine what kind of magic item it essentially replaces, and leave it out of the NPC write-up. It would be in-character for such a warrior to refuse using a magic weapon, feeling confident in his fighting skills.
Of course, PCs might stack Fighting Skills and Magic Items, but that just means you're free to pile on some challenges to mess them over.
As for play balance, I feel it's a subjective thing: One party of level 2 PCs might have better odds then another when faced with a CR 2 challenge, simply because of situation differences or PC decisions. Sometimes, you just have to play it by ear.
For exemple, the Desert Scorpion style of twin scimitar fighting has as prerequisites: BAB+3 or more, HP 30+, Fort +4, Will+3, and the Feats Ambidexterity, Dodge, Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Focus (scimitar or longsword). So already, the lowest applicant for this school would be a level four human fighter. Fighters of other races would need a higher level, and other classes would need very high levels to meet all the prerequisites. And that's just to be an Initiate in this style. Further levels require higher BAB bonuses and more Feats.
Furthermore, all Martial Arts Style abilities are treated as Extraordinary abilities. Essentially, they're like built-in magic items. I don't see what's wrong with allowing Fighter-type characters to boost their abilities in this way, rather then in just piling up magic items over magic items.
And if game balance is an issue, just look at the martial artist's ability, determine what kind of magic item it essentially replaces, and leave it out of the NPC write-up. It would be in-character for such a warrior to refuse using a magic weapon, feeling confident in his fighting skills.
Of course, PCs might stack Fighting Skills and Magic Items, but that just means you're free to pile on some challenges to mess them over.
As for play balance, I feel it's a subjective thing: One party of level 2 PCs might have better odds then another when faced with a CR 2 challenge, simply because of situation differences or PC decisions. Sometimes, you just have to play it by ear.
