Fighting Styles: Which option to choose?

[d20Dwarf]

So, what stops an NPC wizard from using his item creation feats to create lots of magical items (With the half cost for creating them), spending all that XP, and still being the same CR because he gained all that XP back from doing whatever?

Only kenjib's house rules and DM fiat.

 

[Xarlen]

Only kenjib's house rules and DM fiat.

'

Well, it would be the DM doing it, so why would a DM fiat his own creation?

 

[I'm A Banana]

M'fraid what Kenjib says makes the most sense to me...

A lot of it for me was "why bother"? Why have a different way to gain powers when feats and PrC's would work absolutely super in this instance?

They don't work as well with magic items, sadly. So a new method existed for those.

And I *REALLY* don't understand how being extraordinary is a limiting factor at all...that makes 'em potent, because there's no way you can get rid of 'em. Dispel Magic or AntiMagic allows you to get rid of all magic items that may exist.

But that's really a side issue.

I mean, why make a new method to handle something that the original method handles quite well by itself? It's not so much an issue of being unbalanced as presented, but flawed in concept.

And I'd like to see why *not* to take some beginner levels in these schools at high levels...I mean, XP you're going to more than make back in the session to gain a few pretty rewarding bonuses....it'd be analagous to having scrolls give permanent bonuses....

I'm open to seeing these as okay, but I haven't seen any evidence that it's okay beyond "it's just like magic items," when they're really not, prodiving different rewards and unique powers that magic items don't do...

 

[d20Dwarf]

Let's fix your basic math:

Let's fix your basic English. You didn't fix anything, you changed the desired result.

I'm afraid I don't understand. I hardly think that the wizard is underpowered (and other than the bard, the other spell casters as well) and that D&D needs to make it easier to proliferate the creation of magic items. Could you clarify how this is imbalancing?

Right, they are overpowered. I can't fix your understanding.

D&D is a level based game. You grow by gaining levels. Therefore, you learn to fight better by gaining levels. Therefore you can learn new fighting styles through PRCs. D&D is not a point based game. You do not grow by spending points to gain powers, except with a few uncommon exceptions. That's one of the fundamental design aspects of D&D - possibly even the single most fundamental design aspect.

It's fundamental that there are exceptions? Ok, cool...


Clearly we won't agree, because we are working from different premises that cannot be changed by argument. Your opinions are just as legitimate as the DM that doesn't allow PrCs into his game (because the core classes are balanced without PrCs in mind, presumably). So, I'll let you have any last word you wish, and hope you enjoy your game.

 

[hong]

So I think I'll use both: First students must climb the ranks of the Martial Arts style, and then, once they've achieved mastery of the basic style, they can acquire first level in the Prestige Class "Master of (name the school)", having already met the prequisites.

D00d! That's exactly what I was going to suggest!

There are a few examples of this sort of thing on my D&D page. Scroll down a bit until you get to the "martial arts schools" section.


Hong "NOT the iconic pimp, really" Ooi

 

[Xarlen]

Hong "NOT the iconic pimp, really" Ooi

Now you're learning.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

My take on fighting styles:

fighting styles should relate to class and feat choice. They don't need any new mechanics that don't already exist in 3e.

If you want to learn the secret of Great Cleave, you can train with the barbarians of the Icy Wastes or the Templars of St. Guthorm. The templars also grant access to the Templar prestige class.

If you want to learn Spring Attack, there are several duelling schools and gladiatorial instructors who can teach you. Some of them will teach the duellist prestige class too.

If you want to learn Improved Critical, you may need to find a master of the weapon you want to learn. But some organizations are known to have masters of certain weapons in them. The Waymarch Knights have masters of the bastard sword, longsword and lance in their ranks. The Knights of St. Cuthbert have masters of the heavy mace, warhammer, shortsword, and longsword in their ranks. The Templars of St. Guthorm are the acknowledged masters of the battle axe.

The elven blademasters of the Sons of Gryphos are the acknowledged masters of the greatsword and they know Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, and a number of other feats.

 

[Tenebrae]

I've used the OA system & found that it requires a whole lots feats for mininum reward. For example, Foot & Fist Master gains a +10 competence bonus on Balance, Jump, & Tumble checks. That's pretty good, but I'm still restricted by how high I can Jump. I did find that at 13th lvl I was able to achieve this, & at 14th lvl my NPC was able to be a Empty Hand master. The NPC is a Expert/Fighter ECL 14. Once you obtain mastery in one style it doesn't take much to learn another. That can be a good thing, if you're a player & a bad thing for the DM.

I perfer the system in the Quintessential books: Fighter, Elf, Monk, Druid. It has balanced reqs for most styles, but you should pay XP for all ranks, like the monk does for his legendary forms. Apparently Mongoose are revising it to include XP. I don't mind paying XP for these advantages, it also weeds out the power games who want everything for nothing.

I believe that both systems can be used together and wouldn't conflict as much as you might think. Therefore I could be a Foot & Fist Master & also take a couple of Legendary Forms or a Quintessential Fighting Style (ie School). [Of course depends on my class as to what lvl I may achieve.] They combine quite well. It's up to you, player & DM.

 

[Psion]

In D&D, XP simply IS the barometer against which a character's power is gauged, not levels.

I disagree. XP are a resource, but levels are the fundamental barometer for the game.

The appropriate encounter level for a party is based on average party level. When the DM creates NPCs to challenge the party, those NPCs are rated by their level, and those NPCs have items according to their wealth by level. If an NPC has item creation feats, you do not subtract the XP from the PC and adjust statistic accordingly... you translate that XP loss into GP loss, and the basic GP is, again, based on level.

XP costs are primarily a means of creating a conundrum for players who wish to get benefits that do not directly spring from class and level. It does that, but it distorts the meaningfulness of levels. In moderation, this is not a big deal, but you should not, IMO, use it as a basis mechanism.

As to why, consider one of the fundamental changes between 2e and 3e: the way multi-class characters were done. Consider why this was done... because for a single class character to gain abilities, they had to progress along a non-linear XP curve, but multi-class characters effectively applied a linear multiplier to their abilities in exchange for a small non-linear hit. In these XP-based benefit schemes, you are effectively binging the 2e advancement scheme into 3e.

In short, I think that using XP costs for spells and magic items is a poor excuse for blowing the doors wide open on using XP expediature as a major resource for character abilities beyond its role in level advancement. Yes, it does play a role in magic item creation, but AFIAC, you shouldn't use XP when you can use levels to acheive the effect you are looking for. And with prestige classes and feat chains, you can.

 

[kenjib]

Let's fix your basic English. You didn't fix anything, you changed the desired result.

Actually, you changed the desired result by giving the higher level characters more benefits. Of course the XP cost will be higher in that case. My point is that with the constant XP cost of taking only one level of several schools, the benefit far outweighs the cost when a character gets to higher levels. I never said anything about the higher level characters taking additional levels in the styles, which is what your calculations were based off of.

Thanks for discussing this. I think it's really cool that we can hear from developers and debate the issues in a public forum like this. EN World is great. I really appreciate your thoughts on this matter and think you've made some good arguments.

Take care Wil!