Figurines of Wondrous Power - offer flanking

[Istar]

Can you flank an enemy using your creature from a figuring of wondrous power.

I see no limitation in the description.

It does say that they cannot make OA attacks but that is not related to flanking it is.

Just on flanking, do prone party members also give flanking.

 

[Pour]

I've played in my games that they DO offer flanking, and in fact have allowed them to also take OAs. Honestly, I don't see them leaping in effectiveness to the point of being broken, from my experience. They're just more handy and desirable in combat, which is the intention of summoning them in the first place.

That said, I also don't allow prone PCs to offer flanking. That's just my ruling. I couldn't say the official opinion.

 

[OnlineDM]

By the official rules, yes, you can provide flanking while prone.

 

[Ferghis]

A figurine of wondrous power cannot take actions of its own (a player needs to use their character's minor action to make the figurine take any action), and therefore cannot flank, since one of the requirements of flanking is "must be able to make an attack." Specifically, "... if you’re affected by an effect that prevents you from taking actions, you don’t flank."

Also, I don't think conjurations count as allies, and only allies can flank.

By the official rules, yes, you can provide flanking while prone.

I'm wondering if this was meant for a different thread...

 

[Pour]

It all seems a little overcomplicated, though, doesn't it- the differences between various summons and the juggling of the action economy? Not to threadjack here, but if figures did function independently but, say, could not be crafted by PCs, would there be enough balance there to allow for a more useful combatant without breaking it through normal ritual creation? Maybe even make them artifacts?

 

[Istar]

A figurine of wondrous power cannot take actions of its own (a player needs to use their character's minor action to make the figurine take any action), and therefore cannot flank, since one of the requirements of flanking is "must be able to make an attack." Specifically, "... if you’re affected by an effect that prevents you from taking actions, you don’t flank."

Also, I don't think conjurations count as allies, and only allies can flank.

I'm wondering if this was meant for a different thread...

So if on your turn you commanded them to attack, then you have flanking that round, as they just made an attack and so obviosuly "must be able to make an attack".

Why doesnt a creature fighting on the side of the party count as an ally exactly ?

 

[OnlineDM]

I'm wondering if this was meant for a different thread...

Nope. Check the last line of the original post - the OP was asking as an aside whether prone party members can flank. Yes, they can.

 

[Ferghis]

My bad, ODM. I totally missed that line.

So if on your turn you commanded them to attack, then you have flanking that round, as they just made an attack and so obviosuly "must be able to make an attack".

It may be the case that, if you have a minor action left, they can flank during your turn. However, they certainly cannot provide flanking for other allies. It even specifically says in AV1 that the figurine lacks basic attacks and therefore cannot make OAs. This is particularly indicative that they cannot make attacks outside a character's turn.

At least that's my reading of the rules. I have no real problem with figurines being able to flank. I'm just saying what I think RAW is.

Why doesnt a creature fighting on the side of the party count as an ally exactly ?

Well, for starters, it's not a creature. It's a conjuration. Nowhere under conjuration does it say that the conjuration is an ally. Under the summoning entry in the compendium, it specifically states that summonings are considered allies. If it were the case for conjurations as well, it would say so. It does not.

 

[Istar]

My bad, ODM. I totally missed that line.

It may be the case that, if you have a minor action left, they can flank during your turn. However, they certainly cannot provide flanking for other allies. It even specifically says in AV1 that the figurine lacks basic attacks and therefore cannot make OAs. This is particularly indicative that they cannot make attacks outside a character's turn.

At least that's my reading of the rules. I have no real problem with figurines being able to flank. I'm just saying what I think RAW is.

Well, for starters, it's not a creature. It's a conjuration. Nowhere under conjuration does it say that the conjuration is an ally. Under the summoning entry in the compendium, it specifically states that summonings are considered allies. If it were the case for conjurations as well, it would say so. It does not.

Nope thats fine, I was just trying to nail down the rules a bit more.

On the conjuration v summoning issue re being an Ally.
There is nothing that says a conjured Figurine is not an ally.
But it would be nice to have some clarification either way.

I am sure if they meant the figurines to be unable to count as allys and to be unable to flank, then they would have stated it, as they stated that they cant take OA's.

But not being able to make OA's doesnt mean you cant flank.
Only if you are not able to make attacks ie, Stunned, then you cant flank, as you dont present a threat.

 

[Ferghis]

I am sure if they meant the figurines to be unable to count as allys and to be unable to flank, then they would have stated it...

I agree that it would have been a nice clarification, but it's not common to list the things something is not. Usually definitions are limited to positive statements. This might be on account of the list what stuff is not being a bit long.

But not being able to make OA's doesnt mean you cant flank.
Only if you are not able to make attacks ie, Stunned, then you cant flank, as you dont present a threat.

Dazed has the same consequence. And a figurine's activity level is close to being dazed: it can't take out-of-turn actions, and is very limited on its own turn.