Final Fantasy Zero: Design Diary continued

[I'm A Banana]

All well and good, but I was trying to get more of a feel for technology from a mechanics standpoint rather than a fluff standpoint.

As I mentioned, you have an engineer class, which almost guarantees that you have some sort of class abilities for them. I'm curious where you went with that, if you've gone there or even thought about it yet.

AAaah. My apologies.

Anyone can craft most of the items in FFZ with the right combo of feats and skills, of course. Machinists are simply the BEST at crafting. And because of the "KISS" mantra I've adopted, I wanted to make sure that crafting was not an excersize in accounting and bookeeping based on prerequisites, skill ranks, time, and gil. Instead, the inventions "just happen."

To clarify it slightly, it works more like the Craft Points mechanic in UA than anything else. You have a finite number of things you can craft, and a limit on the power of those items based on your level (no 1st-level sub-oribital death-beams, no effectively infinite supplies of low-powered items, either). These items are crafted more-or-less automatically. Mechanists get bonus items in a way very similar to how spellcasters learn spells -- they're simply awarded based on levels.

What power they have, then, is defined by the type of items available in the campaign. By default, there are things for high-level mechanists to craft that do resemble stuff out of sci-fi (space ships, teleport pads, time loop paradoxes, etc.), but that's at the pinnacle of a long line of items from potions to airships, to constructs and even monsters. Edgar's tools make appearances at relatively low levels (the chainsaw isn't even really that powerful of an item, though it rocked in the game). These are limited in much the same way as spells are -- by a "Tech Rank" rather than a Spell Rank (Tech I, Tech II, Tech III; rather than Wizardry I, Wizardry II, Wizardry II). This also helps define what a Mechanist can actually control in abscence of skill rank -- Int of 10 + the level of the tech.

Now, because I've wanted to avoid introducing a mechanic that is always better to use than a standard attack (I know this goes against FF canon, but I think there should always be a place for a standard attack), these items do have to use fuel of a sort, if they can be used in combat. Firing an airship canon or powering the chainsaw can use up MP (though generally substantially less than a similar spell) in addition to delays or other limits.

As for abilties other than invention (which covers the tools and Use pretty well), the Mix ability will appear in some form, as will Rikku's famous ability to disable constructs in combat nearly instantly. There's going to be a nice handful of abilities from FFX-2 and FFT's alchemists, too. Mix is going to be tough because of the impossibility of documenting all possible item combos, so will likely focus on the results of the Mix ability, and become something of a random rod-of-wonder style table. There's also item synthesis (a popular staple of the genre by now) to be included, where you'd combine some things to make others, though this will probably fit more in the realm of AP than anything else.

 

[librarius_arcana]

I think D20 Modern (+my BAB to skill thing) May be a better fit for this (at least in the Final Fantasy: Advent Children movie sense)

Just something in the film about Cloud being a Jack-of-trades,
yet being the best fighter as well

 

[Arkhandus]

Well, y'know, Cloud Stryfe was a failure as a SOLDIER, only managed to become a grunt in the army. He was mediocre at best. After the incident in Nibelheim, he managed to get medical attention and recover, then wander around for several years and survive by doing odd jobs and learning miscellaneous skills, in addition to the mercenary work he was best suited for. Only his unnaturally-enhanced abilities allowed him to become so diverse and also a good swordsman.

He only became a powerful fighter with almost-universally-good physical and mental capabilities after Hojo experimented on him, and did all kinds of intrusive and inhumane things to Cloud's body using Jenova cells, Mako Radiation Therapy, and probably all kinds of genetic mangling with chemicals and drugs and brain-pattern interference. Hojo tried and partially succeeded in making Cloud a Sephiroth clone, but since Cloud was such a horribly mediocre or sub-par human specimen in the first place, he was on the verge of dying from all the experiments. If Zack hadn't broken them both out at feeding time when he did, Cloud would have likely died after the next experiment or two. Zack didn't respond to the treatments so he was going to be disposed of as useless, while Cloud responded significantly to the treatments but was on the verge of death from them anyway. If Cloud hadn't escaped and been left for dead by the Shinras who thought he was dying already, he wouldn't have gotten the chance to recover and develop his newly-Mako-and-Jenova-cell-enhanced abilities.

So, uh, yeah, Cloud isn't a good example of a typical Final Fantasy character I think, statistically, since he was a mutant-alien freak of nature only barely still human by the time Hojo was done with him. I don't think Squall, Zidane, or Tidus were quite so universally superior to their comrades, in the later Final Fantasy games.....

I've been playing FF7 again lately, yeah.

At some point soon I'll probably get around to reading the Final Fantasy Zero stuff in KM's sig, but I know I had at least tried to read some of it many many months ago......

 

[librarius_arcana]

Well, y'know, Cloud Stryfe was a failure as a SOLDIER, only managed to become a grunt in the army. He was mediocre at best. After the incident in Nibelheim, he managed to get medical attention and recover, then wander around for several years and survive by doing odd jobs and learning miscellaneous skills, in addition to the mercenary work he was best suited for. Only his unnaturally-enhanced abilities allowed him to become so diverse and also a good swordsman.

He only became a powerful fighter with almost-universally-good physical and mental capabilities after Hojo experimented on him, and did all kinds of intrusive and inhumane things to Cloud's body using Jenova cells, Mako Radiation Therapy, and probably all kinds of genetic mangling with chemicals and drugs and brain-pattern interference. Hojo tried and partially succeeded in making Cloud a Sephiroth clone, but since Cloud was such a horribly mediocre or sub-par human specimen in the first place, he was on the verge of dying from all the experiments. If Zack hadn't broken them both out at feeding time when he did, Cloud would have likely died after the next experiment or two. Zack didn't respond to the treatments so he was going to be disposed of as useless, while Cloud responded significantly to the treatments but was on the verge of death from them anyway. If Cloud hadn't escaped and been left for dead by the Shinras who thought he was dying already, he wouldn't have gotten the chance to recover and develop his newly-Mako-and-Jenova-cell-enhanced abilities.

So, uh, yeah, Cloud isn't a good example of a typical Final Fantasy character I think, statistically, since he was a mutant-alien freak of nature only barely still human by the time Hojo was done with him. I don't think Squall, Zidane, or Tidus were quite so universally superior to their comrades, in the later Final Fantasy games.....

I've been playing FF7 again lately, yeah.

At some point soon I'll probably get around to reading the Final Fantasy Zero stuff in KM's sig, but I know I had at least tried to read some of it many many months ago......

I've played this game more times than I can keep track of, so I do know the story really well
(And I don't agree with...

So, uh, yeah, Cloud isn't a good example of a typical Final Fantasy character I think, statistically, since he was a mutant-alien freak of nature only barely still human by the time Hojo was done with him.

Most of the team was "not normal"
Lets just look at this for a mo
You've got...(not counting Cloud)

A talking animal with a firey tail (Red XIII)
Another intelligent talking animal (Cait Sith)
A Cetra, aka an Ancient, and just happens to be the last Cetra (Aerith Gainsborough)
A guy with a gun for an arm (Barret Wallace)
And the rest even though human, are superhuman, ( Tifa Lockhart, Yuffie Kisaragi, Cid Highwind, and even Reno, Rude, and Rufus Shinra (in game, but not in movie)
and lets not forget Vincent Valentine

That group is not to normal

And Mojo messed with lots of people (ie Vincent etc, and any and everyone in SOLDIER never mind Kadaj, Loz, Yazoo, and the other remnants etc,

And btw it's "Cloud Strife" not "Stryfe" )

 

[I'm A Banana]

"Not Normal" is pretty normal for an FF character, in general. Even in FF6, you have horribly mutated heroes and villains both (a YETI?!).

Just something in the film about Cloud being a Jack-of-trades,
yet being the best fighter as well

In FFZ, this would probably best be represented with his "Samurai" job, and perhaps investing a feat or two in unusual skill choices (skill focus: tinkering comes to mind). He doesn't go around inventing airships like Cid, but he knows his way around the machines.

 

[Arkhandus]

I think part of my point was missed, but meh. Main point though was that, while all of Cloud's team were talented to some extent, Cloud was still overall superior in abilities, not the most typical member of the party.

One of my friends always names his PCs in tabletop RPGs 'Stryfe' so I'm just much more used to seeing that abnormal spelling, and thought I remembered it starting after he got Final Fantasy VII.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Anyone can craft most of the items in FFZ with the right combo of feats and skills, of course. Machinists are simply the BEST at crafting. And because of the "KISS" mantra I've adopted, I wanted to make sure that crafting was not an excersize in accounting and bookeeping based on prerequisites, skill ranks, time, and gil. Instead, the inventions "just happen."

That sounds good.

Now, because I've wanted to avoid introducing a mechanic that is always better to use than a standard attack (I know this goes against FF canon, but I think there should always be a place for a standard attack), these items do have to use fuel of a sort, if they can be used in combat. Firing an airship canon or powering the chainsaw can use up MP (though generally substantially less than a similar spell) in addition to delays or other limits.

Everything up to this point sounds neat.

However, spending MP to fuel technology? I can understand why that would seem like a good idea (and it's more than likely balanced), but - from a flavor perspective - how do you make sense of that?

 

[I'm A Banana]

However, spending MP to fuel technology? I can understand why that would seem like a good idea (and it's more than likely balanced), but - from a flavor perspective - how do you make sense of that?

MP isn't, of course, the ONLY way to fuel technology. Other ways (steam power, man power, clockwork, chemical power, electricity, whatever) still work. However, the fantastic technologies (airships, teleporters, laser cannons) are the things the PC's are going to have the most exposure to, and those tend to use MP.

I'll go over both flavor and mechanics, but since you asked about flavor first, I'll hit that. The major idea is that the old ancient empires used magical technology -- MagiTek. This fits with the idea that the old ancient imperial forces were great magicians -- dwarves trucked with dark forces, and lufenish are renowned for being sages and spellcasters. Even moogles are deeply in touch with both magic and technology (and, in their case, it doesn't involve being seperate from the natural world). The PC's, in most of their careers, will be making and using MagiTek. One could say that it would be impractical for a Mechanist to make an internal combustion engine -- why bother mining for oil and refining it into gasoline with dangerous explosions when he can take the same basic principle of "spinning an axle" and use MagiTech to accomplish the same thing?

Now, because the common folk don't generally have access to a lot of this stuff, other technologies are pursued, too. So you get a lot of "background tech": steam power, electricity, etc. This is stuff PC's generally don't get involved in (though, of course, mechanists know about and can tinker with). Thus, you can get situations like in FF6, where magic was forgotten (no MagiTek), but science and technology moved forward (mundane tech). When the Empire re-discovered magic and used it to power walkers and war machines, they were capable of things normal technology wasn't -- elemental beams, TekMissiles, opening rifts in time and space, etc. You can also get situations like in most FF's, where a once-great ancient kingdom had powers that even the present day can't realize (even if the present-day is as advanced enough to have TV's and live feed and people going into space!).

So, flavor-wise, MP works like a very efficient, easily available, constant fuel source. Like someone could use a windmill to tap brain radiation. It's the source that was tapped for ancient, powerful, fantastic technologies, and it's the source that Mechanists use to power most of their stuff. It's not the source that everyone uses, but it's by far the easiest and most efficient source.

Some tech also uses HP to fuel it, leading to things like Mako energy (Shinra using the planet's HP to fuel technology), which is given a pretty necromantic cast.

You get some very interesting in-character conflicts about Mechanists who carry around things like Magicite (dead gods?) and Materia (crystalized souls?) to power their things, and, of course, those wonderfully wicked empires and corporations that misuse them.

Mechanically, you get that ever-present ability and you give people stuff to spend it on. First, there's the idea that everyone in FFZ gains some MP at some point, so it's a universal power source -- nearly every person has some to give. Knights can take feats to let them cast spells, frex, so there's no reason they can't hop in a suit of MagiTek armor and ride around town, either.

You also get the whole "regular attacks aren't meaningless" effect. In this way, once you get a powerful technological item, you still have a reason to drop it and draw your sword, an interesting choice about whether or not you can afford to unleash it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Also: We Have White Mage. He's in the sig. And he rocks your face off (can we say free LIFE spells? Yes, I believe we can....).

Knight and then Thief and then Monsters and then Awards and we have a complete game, more or less.

 

[Arkhandus]

Yeah, I'd consider MP to represent the character's available, useable supply of energy from Mako, the Lifestream, or Ether (like in Xenogears; a mysterious energy that's nonetheless useable by machines). Any device incorporating a bit of MagiTek, or Materia, or crystallized Ether or whatnot could use such energy as a power source, as channeled into it by the wielder.