D&D 5E Final playtest packet due in mid September.

[Weather Report]

I don't know if it's been said, but: Throw them off with a session of no rolling.

And all the other stuff about communicating (this is key) with your players, engage, what do we want (?), yet, don't let this bizarre player entitlement lead you astray,

 

[LostSoul]

(A) That is pretty awesome playing and (B) equally awesome GMing. While you "totally ignored the rules" you made a very tight ruling that was in-line with the design framework of 3.x. It just supercharged the ad-hoc ability into an SoD by DM-fiat, again fitting with the design aesthetic of the ruleset. And I agree, that is why I like exception-based design and a p42 tool to handle the finality of such a ruling. Allows the player to do awesome, improv stuff while subverting the GM conflict of interest and/or table negotiation.

One of the reasons I like 4E is because of pg 42 - it'll tell you what you need to roll to do strange stuff like that.

I've incorporated a "luck" roll into my 3E & 4E hack games, based on wandering monster rolls: If, as DM, I'm not sure what the outcome is going to be, and the outcome is going to affect the PCs, I roll a d6. Low is bad, high is good. I think I made one of those rolls during that insane clay golem encounter, shifting the roll towards the high end (on a 3-4, because it's lost its elemental spirit).

That technique has been more successful than any other I can recall.

 

[pemerton]

I think you're making distinctions that don't exist. If your ability to make more effective choices comes from knowledge of the system and how it operates, you're exercising system mastery.

I don't agree at all. If I'm a first time AD&D player, and I choose rope when equipping my PC because I'm thinking it could be handy for climbing, that's not system mastery. Choosing to play a merchant so I'll be good at trading is in the same category.

Plus, I doubt there are many, if any, more system build elements than Traveller in 3e that I can't access via the fiction.

Here's two off the top of my head: Power Attack and Whirlwind Attack. Will PA increase my damage output? I can't know until I do fairly complex calculations about relative to hit rates and damage outputs which have no correlation to any in-fiction decision-making. With WA, will this be better than my iterative attacks for cutting down two adjacent enemies? That also depends on their ACs and hit points.

Traveller has nothing I can think of that requires making system-dependent calculations that don't correlate to ingame decisions.

 

[Viking Bastard]

I've incorporated a "luck" roll into my 3E & 4E hack games, based on wandering monster rolls: If, as DM, I'm not sure what the outcome is going to be, and the outcome is going to affect the PCs, I roll a d6. Low is bad, high is good. I think I made one of those rolls during that insane clay golem encounter, shifting the roll towards the high end (on a 3-4, because it's lost its elemental spirit).

That technique has been more successful than any other I can recall.

I've been doing many variations of that since forever--I call it a 'situation check' or 'reality check' (depending on context).


The variation that evolved over the course of my 4e campaign was:

• I roll a d6
• on a 1-2, the situation turns out in the group's disfavour
• on a 3-4, the situation turn out even/remains neutral
• on a 5-6, the situation turns out in the group's favour
• If the group has some kind of edge in the situation, add a +1 (or +2, in rare circumstances)
• If situation seems to be stacked against the group, subtract -1 (or -2, in rare circumstances)

I found that as the campaign progressed I'd do more and more of these.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Traveller has nothing I can think of that requires making system-dependent calculations that don't correlate to ingame decisions.

If it has system-dependent calculations that do correlate with in-game decisions, there is still some system mastery involved. It's an easier system to master given that this correlation is relatively strong, but it's still there.

 

[Bluenose]

If it has system-dependent calculations that do correlate with in-game decisions, there is still some system mastery involved. It's an easier system to master given that this correlation is relatively strong, but it's still there.

That would depend which bits of Traveller interest a group most. "Normal" adventuring, there's probably not much. Trillion Credit Squadron - that's an exercise in system mastery if I've ever seen one with very involved calculations, even if they do correlate with decisions that would exist in the game-world.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I've incorporated a "luck" roll into my 3E & 4E hack games, based on wandering monster rolls: If, as DM, I'm not sure what the outcome is going to be, and the outcome is going to affect the PCs, I roll a d6. Low is bad, high is good.

I've done something similar and open-ended for a while, but I use percentiles.

 

[pemerton]

That would depend which bits of Traveller interest a group most. "Normal" adventuring, there's probably not much. Trillion Credit Squadron - that's an exercise in system mastery if I've ever seen one with very involved calculations, even if they do correlate with decisions that would exist in the game-world.

I'm thinking of basic game play - "normal" adventuring, as you put it.

 

[Ratskinner]

Obviously it will simulate "bad" novels because it isn't entirely planned out.

However, I could see almost the entirety of Lord of the Rings happening in a D&D game. I could definitely see the plot of a number of my D&D games being novels instead.

<snip example>

The adventure continued past that, but that seems like what would have been book 1 in a fantasy series. Sure, the characterizations were kind of flat and there were parts that would likely be edited before publishing. But D&D simulated the KIND of story you'd see in a novel.

I think we're just talking about the finer points of the word "simulate". (I know I am. ) "I could see it happening" is not exactly a strong endorsement for a simulator. Consider this, one can play any edition of D&D in a totally story-free mode using random encounter-tables or heck a random dungeon generator in the back of 1e's (DMG?), strict tactical play in 4e, etc. The game doesn't really bring any intentional story to the table, the Players/DM do. In that way, D&D is no more a story emulator than a paper and pencil. (Which isn't a bad thing!) That's in contrast to some other games that intentionally push stories of a particular type (Fiasco, the GUMSHOE games, Leverage maybe).

I'm definitely not suggesting that D&D should go the route of those other games. I think its fine the way it is (for a wide definition of "fine"). I'm just saying that this idea that D&D is a "story game" doesn't really hold as much water as folks seem to think.

 

[billd91]

I don't agree at all. If I'm a first time AD&D player, and I choose rope when equipping my PC because I'm thinking it could be handy for climbing, that's not system mastery. Choosing to play a merchant so I'll be good at trading is in the same category.

Here's two off the top of my head: Power Attack and Whirlwind Attack. Will PA increase my damage output? I can't know until I do fairly complex calculations about relative to hit rates and damage outputs which have no correlation to any in-fiction decision-making. With WA, will this be better than my iterative attacks for cutting down two adjacent enemies? That also depends on their ACs and hit points.

Traveller has nothing I can think of that requires making system-dependent calculations that don't correlate to ingame decisions.

Using your examples: Korak the barbarian realizes he can use his strength to great advantage, swinging a little more wildly but biting deeper. Li Jen Kuei has learned the technique of One Against Many developed by his master when fighting the Tong gangs.

Meanwhile, Chuck rolls up a merchant and because he wants to maximize his chances of getting a trader, he expects to have terms into his 50s, so he chooses to play a Vilani because they get bonuses on their adding rolls.

Your system master as a story in D&D. Your story in Traceller as system mastery.