D&D 5E Final playtest packet due in mid September.

[Ratskinner]

Is it possible to have no creative restraints with restrained mechanics? I'm not entirely convinced that's the case. I think some universal point-oriented systems come pretty close to covering just about anything, but I'd also say that none of the ones I'm familiar with (GURPS, Hero, M&M) have completely restrained mechanics that avoid the necessity of GM intervention.

It is, but you have to step the mechanics back away from simulating a "reality" and into mode which many folks around here would call "metagame" (I think, I'm still not clear on exactly how people are using that word pejoratively and incorrectly.) IME, this works quite well, and can solve some of the persistent problems that supers games run into. (Speedsters & resolution, pricing, etc.)

 

[pemerton]

Using your examples: Korak the barbarian realizes he can use his strength to great advantage, swinging a little more wildly but biting deeper.

But this won't actually work to increase damage output except within a certain range of ACs relative to a certain amount of power attack. You need a spreadsheet to optimise power attack in 3E. You don't need anything but an understanding of the fiction to know that being a merchant in Traveller will make it easier to make money trading.

 

[N'raac]

But this won't actually work to increase damage output except within a certain range of ACs relative to a certain amount of power attack. You need a spreadsheet to optimise power attack in 3E. You don't need anything but an understanding of the fiction to know that being a merchant in Traveller will make it easier to make money trading.

That very knowledge and understanding is, in its way, systems mastery. I would suggest it's less the fiction and more knowledge of which charts are accessed through each service, and what is on those charts, to guide your Traveler character.

No systems master: More damage is kewl - Power Attack.
Systems mastery: With my opponent's AC of 23, the optimal use of power attack with my current modifiers is 7.

No systems mastery: This service looks cool
Systems mastery: Start here and follow my decision tree to maximize desired result

 

[Nagol]

That very knowledge and understanding is, in its way, systems mastery. I would suggest it's less the fiction and more knowledge of which charts are accessed through each service, and what is on those charts, to guide your Traveler character.

No systems master: More damage is kewl - Power Attack.
Systems mastery: With my opponent's AC of 23, the optimal use of power attack with my current modifiers is 7.

No systems mastery: This service looks cool
Systems mastery: Start here and follow my decision tree to maximize desired result

There are only two skills that apply to making money trading (admin or bribery). Nothing in the names or the skills suggest these are the skills that control profit-making from cargo speculation and this role is not mentioned in the player-accessible skill descriptions in Book 1. Their use is only found in the Starships book under the cargo speculation rules.

Admin is available on the Navy, Army, and Marine charts as well as Merchant, but is only available on a chart restricted to characters with Education 8+ . Bribery is only available to Merchant and Other. In all cases, the skills only appear once on one table for the career. The Merchant has access to both skills, but they are on different charts.

With only a 1:6 chance of acquiring an applicable skill per chart selected, a Merchant ends up being no better at speculation than an Other or a character in any service other than Scout with an Education 8+. Even if the Merchant has an education 8+ his chances to achieve an appropriate skill don't go up; the Merchant PC has two charts to choose from to acquire a skill beneficial for trading whereas all other careers with access only have one. This allows a Merchant character to become more rounded while still offering a chance to increase an appropriate skill.

To become a good trader requires both system mastery and a lot of luck. Without system mastery, it is likely charts that don't contain these skill rewards will be chosen to advance the character. Without luck, the player won't manage to acquire the skills regardless of player choice.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Is it possible to have no creative restraints with restrained mechanics? I'm not entirely convinced that's the case. I think some universal point-oriented systems come pretty close to covering just about anything, but I'd also say that none of the ones I'm familiar with (GURPS, Hero, M&M) have completely restrained mechanics that avoid the necessity of GM intervention.

Avoid the necessity completely? No. Reduce it greatly? Definitely. All the following examples are IMO:

4E has similar levels of open creativity as 3E with a different framework. Feats are still feats, Prestige Classes are Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, there are builds and backgrounds. 4E required much less policing to avoid power gap.

MHRP is extremely open and works on a simple framework to achieve the wideness.

Earthdawn (1E) had the same concept of classes and powers that various version of D&D has had, being just as open, but with a tight framework to avoid power gap.

Shadowrun (1E) was priority point build and except for the Decker had little of the power gap issues.

Even BD&D and AD&D never caused the huge power gaps my group experienced in 3E. Even with unbalanced options like Unearthed Arcana thrown in the players still felt relatively challenged.

 

[sidonunspa]

No systems master: More damage is kewl - Power Attack.
Systems mastery: With my opponent's AC of 23, the optimal use of power attack with my current modifiers is 7.

No systems mastery: This service looks cool
Systems mastery: Start here and follow my decision tree to maximize desired result

Or design a game where system mastery has SOME impact but does not severely punish players for creating 'off' builds.

I know...a lot to take in

 

[Bluenose]

Using your examples: Korak the barbarian realizes he can use his strength to great advantage, swinging a little more wildly but biting deeper.

Some day I imagine someone will have to explain how a wild swing somehow generates more power than a controlled one.

With only a 1:6 chance of acquiring an applicable skill per chart selected, a Merchant ends up being no better at speculation than an Other or a character in any service other than Scout with an Education 8+. Even if the Merchant has an education 8+ his chances to achieve an appropriate skill don't go up; the Merchant PC has two charts to choose from to acquire a skill beneficial for trading whereas all other careers with access only have one. This allows a Merchant character to become more rounded while still offering a chance to increase an appropriate skill.

To become a good trader requires both system mastery and a lot of luck. Without system mastery, it is likely charts that don't contain these skill rewards will be chosen to advance the character. Without luck, the player won't manage to acquire the skills regardless of player choice.

Traveller is a game where it's always been hard to create the exact character you want, because so much of character generation is random. In that respect it's very different from modern versions of D&D, and for that matter many other games. There's system mastery in it, but it tends to be in places that aren't quite where other RPGs have them.

 

[pemerton]

Some day I imagine someone will have to explain how a wild swing somehow generates more power than a controlled one.

Quite. Power Attack is actually one of my most-disliked things about 3E, because it depends utterly on manipulating what is purely a system level but not an in-fiction phenomenon, namely, that STR adds to both attack number and to damage.

Traveller is a game where it's always been hard to create the exact character you want, because so much of character generation is random. In that respect it's very different from modern versions of D&D, and for that matter many other games. There's system mastery in it, but it tends to be in places that aren't quite where other RPGs have them.

Where do you see it as being located?

At this point of the conversation I'm still not persuaded that system mastery is at work in those austere simulationist systems in the way that it is in 3E or 4e.

 

[Tovec]

Some day I imagine someone will have to explain how a wild swing somehow generates more power than a controlled one.

I've only been paying the loosest amount of attention to this thread and so I'm not going to try and understand the context of what is going on.

However, this phenomenon can be easily explained.

To test it out yourself you'll need a baseball bat. That's it really, just a bat and a ball.

Take the bat and go outside. Swing it as hard as you can. Now, have someone pitch you the ball and try and hit the ball. You can swing by aiming, and hit the ball. You may hit it in field or outfield or maybe even a home run. Now, have them throw the ball again. This time you have to swing with all your might. As fast and as hard as possible, but not as accurately. If you happen to hit the ball it will go flying further than if you had swung less hard. But your chances of connecting, if you are really using all your might to swing, drop drastically.

That is "barbarian uses his strength to swing wildly but deeper" in a nutshell.

Trust me on this by the way, I've done it personally and it is a huge difference. If you manage to hit it just blasts way further. And if I trained and trained, and managed to up my bonus to hit then I'm sure could knock it out the park nearly every time - assuming I connected.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Tovec Unfortunately that isn't accurate. Generating golf club head speed and bat speed uses same principles. Honed technique + small muscle strength (fingers, hands, wrists, forearms, obliques, hips) = generating torque and minimizing the friction of atmospheric drag on the implement. That is what creates MPH and MPH is the "power" in the Power Attack scenario.

There is much more to it with respect to baseball and golf (primarily conservation of energy and conservation of momentum; the collision occurring at a specific angle, compressing the ball and generating backspin which also dictates trajectory and length, and the collision being center of mass for the ball and sweet spot of bad/club head face) but the above is what is applicable to the conversation and the generation of power of a swung implement; conserve momentum, reduce friction. These are achieved through technique primarily and most often "swinging harder" is poison. Once technique is perfectly honed and small muscle strength has peaked, there is incremental gain in MPH through large muscle strength.