Finalized Hybrid Rules - What's new?

[Danceofmasks]

10 Base
+10 Armor
+3 Min Enh
+2 Shield
+6 1/2 Level
31 AC total

Armor, Shield, Level.
What the heck does Hybrid have to do with this?

Do I have to school you, really?

You got 31. You forgot:
+2 Champion of Corellon with 15+ dex
+1 Shield Specialization
34 AC total.

It has to do with a hybrid because it's a 20/16 Sorcerer.
As in +5 to hit and +8 damage at level 1 sorcerer with lots of multi-target multi-damroll arcane powers.
As in the damage output from standard actions may be less than a pure sorcerer, but with the paladin power synergy actually pumps out more damage.
(buffs, interrupt, DC/sanction, grouping enemies up to maximise # targets)

Somehow I think you missed the post with my build in it.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Do I have to school you, really?

Somehow I think you missed the post with my build in it.

Any chance you can trim the attitude down a couple notches?

 

[Danceofmasks]

You don't think Marshall is being deliberately belligerent with his, "I don't see how this has to do with a hybrid" and "you talk about it, but you don't show anything" ?

 

[KarinsDad]

You don't think Marshall is being deliberately belligerent with his, "I don't see how this has to do with a hybrid" and "you talk about it, but you don't show anything" ?

No. I think you are.

You started with a Paladin | Sorcerer / Rogue / Daggermaster. When he commented, you started with "WTF?" and it suddenly changed to a Paladin | Sorcerer / Champion of Corellon.

Personally, I was as confused by your postings as he was. I had to read them multiple times to glean out what you were trying to say.

It is much easier to understand the build if you just post the relevant info straight out of CB instead of wandering from point to point.

 

[Marshall]

Do I have to school you, really?

You got 31. You forgot:
+2 Champion of Corellon with 15+ dex
+1 Shield Specialization
34 AC total.

It has to do with a hybrid because it's a 20/16 Sorcerer.
As in +5 to hit and +8 damage at level 1 sorcerer with lots of multi-target multi-damroll arcane powers.
As in the damage output from standard actions may be less than a pure sorcerer, but with the paladin power synergy actually pumps out more damage.
(buffs, interrupt, DC/sanction, grouping enemies up to maximise # targets)

Somehow I think you missed the post with my build in it.

No. I didnt forget it. I pointed out that you're not gaining anything from the Hybrid, its all from the armor that anyone at that level will have.

As is you're gaining some AC(OK, a LOT of AC) but you're giving up 1/3 of you're attack powers and a significant amount of options for the off hand. At best, you're looking like an average non-hybrid that is min/maxed.
Again, I'm still not seeing anything that shows a reasonable reason to build this character. You're a poor paladin AND a less than mediocre Sorcerer.

Even if you think this is viable, adding another HT to it(or making the first one free) does squat for it other than add real Sorcerer flavor.

 

[interwyrm]

A character I've really been wanting to play is a Swordmage|Feylock/Fighter:Feytouched. Yes, this is a striker. Yes, this is a feycharger (mostly)

The part of this that can't be duplicated without hybrid is that warlock curse damage can be used on the mark of assault attack by using Eldritch Strike. In addition, with a staggering weapon, that eldritch strike will almost certainly put the attacker out of range after the first successful attack, seriously hurting multiattackers. Meanwhile, teleport util powers make it really easy to get away from your mark and cause damage elsewhere.

The major downside is reduced durability. The warlock pact also suffers (depending on your reading of dual pact)

Another build I considered for hybrids, but didn't really put together... is a Cleric|Paladin with emphasis on healing. I suspect that this sort of build could actually heal better than a straight cleric, but would pretty much suck at everything else.

Like I said earlier though, I don't really see hybrid leaders, defenders, or controllers as being particularly effective.

If anyone has ideas on how to make a hybrid stickier, get it to lockdown a single enemy better, or get it to hand out buffs/alpha strikes better... I'd love to hear it. (Swordmage|Wizard is pretty much king of minion massacre imo).

 

[Stuntman]

Like I said earlier though, I don't really see hybrid leaders, defenders, or controllers as being particularly effective.

If anyone has ideas on how to make a hybrid stickier, get it to lockdown a single enemy better, or get it to hand out buffs/alpha strikes better... I'd love to hear it. (Swordmage|Wizard is pretty much king of minion massacre imo).

I don't think that was the intent of hybrids. The intent is for hybrids to be able to do more diverse things than a single classed character. A hybrid defender-striker will not be able to defend better than a single classed defender, but will be able to strike better than a single classed defender. Likewise, the hybrid fighter-striker will not be able to strike better than a single classed striker, but will be able to defend better.

 

[Destil]

So here's a character I really like. He's converted from another system where he was a jack of all trades type, and this hybrid build pulls it off very well... I'm pretty happy when I can, in effect, build a Red Mage in D&D.

Demias, level 11
Human, Bard|Rogue, Paragon Multiclassing
Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Reflex
Hybrid Talent: Rogue Tactics
Rogue Tactics: Artful Dodger

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 11, Dex 19, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 21.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16.


AC: 24 Fort: 19 Reflex: 26 Will: 23
HP: 73 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 18

TRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +15, Athletics +11, Stealth +14, Acrobatics +14, Thievery +14, Intimidate +15, Streetwise +15, Arcana +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +11, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +6, Heal +5, History +7, Insight +5, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +7

FEATS
Human: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Arcane Prodigy
Level 4: Novice Power
Level 6: Surprising Charge (retrained to Shield Proficiency (Light) at Level 11)
Level 8: Acolyte Power
Level 10: Adept Power
Level 11: Sorcerous Power

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Guiding Strike
Hybrid Bard at-will 1: Vicious Mockery (retrained to Burning Spray at Paragon Multiclassing)
Hybrid Rogue at-will 1: Piercing Strike
Paragon Multiclassing: Thunder Bomb
Hybrid encounter 1: Thunder's Calling (retrained to Pinning Bolt at Novice Power)
Hybrid daily 1: Slayer's Song (retrained to Howling Tempest at Adept Power)
Hybrid utility 2: Song of Courage
Hybrid encounter 3: Low Slash
Hybrid daily 5: Flashy Riposte
Hybrid utility 6: Fortuitous Dodge
Hybrid encounter 7: Chillsong Stroke
Hybrid daily 9: Thunder Blade
Hybrid utility 10: Close Quarters (retrained to Narrow Escape at Acolyte Power)

ITEMS
Drowmesh, Hand Crossbow, Rapier, Light Shield

 

[interwyrm]

I don't think that was the intent of hybrids. The intent is for hybrids to be able to do more diverse things than a single classed character. A hybrid defender-striker will not be able to defend better than a single classed defender, but will be able to strike better than a single classed defender. Likewise, the hybrid fighter-striker will not be able to strike better than a single classed striker, but will be able to defend better.

I see what you're saying. I guess my problem here is that I think a hybrid ought to be able to do both things as well as the base class... but not both at once. In a game like D&D where you're supposed to work as a team, I don't feel that versatility really stacks up too well to specialization.

This is why I'm mostly interested in hybrids that have strong synergistic potential - like a rogue|ranger that focuses on minor action attacks.

For the most part, I only see that synergy when one of the classes is a striker. Although, as pointed out before, Fighter can get a small boost from a second Defender class by increasing its ability to lay down marks.

 

[Stuntman]

I see what you're saying. I guess my problem here is that I think a hybrid ought to be able to do both things as well as the base class... but not both at once.

I think that single classed characters need to have something that hybrids do not. If you give hybrids the ability to be as good as a single classed charcter plus the ability to function as a second class, there would be no point in being a single classed character.

In a game like D&D where you're supposed to work as a team, I don't feel that versatility really stacks up too well to specialization.

I agree that specialisation is generally better than versatility. There are situations where versatility is an advantage. Sometimes, there are situations where a character would be better off if he can function as another role. A hybrid is much better at being able to switch functions and perform adequately than a single classed character. I have seen this with the hybrid character in my group. Although these situations are less common, I think there is some value in versatility. The versatility provided by hybrids generally does not render a character unable to perform at an adequate level.

This is why I'm mostly interested in hybrids that have strong synergistic potential - like a rogue|ranger that focuses on minor action attacks.

For the most part, I only see that synergy when one of the classes is a striker. Although, as pointed out before, Fighter can get a small boost from a second Defender class by increasing its ability to lay down marks.

I find that the ability to mix or combine two classes has a cool factor that I like. I like multiclassed characters in other editions of D&D for this reason. With 4E, I feel that the hybrid (and multiclassing) rules allow me to have such a character without being a liability to my party. I'm sure I can build a single classed character that performs better than most hybrids or multiclassed characters, but I do not feel that ultimate performance is the only goal when it comes to making and playing a character.

I feel in D&D, it is not solely about making the best team mechanically. It is also about making characters and parties with interesting backgrounds and storylines. Some of these interesting characters have diversity rather than specialisations. It is not solely about finding synergy with powers, features and feats of different classes or even within the same class.