D&D 4E Finally, a playtest reporting there are good things from 4e in Next!!

[KarinsDad]

Thanks for responding! I didn't say you were focusing on 4e, but that notion that 4e PCs are invincible supermen keeps coming up.

It's not that they are invincible and it's not that they are supermen.

It's that they are nearly invincible. It's difficult to heavily challenge players without going overboard. One almost never sees just one PC die or PCs significantly penalized after a fight. Either the PCs can handle the fight and all PCs survive (and except for some mostly renewable resources, are basically unscathed for the next fight), or multiple PCs die up to and including a TPK. There doesn't often seem to be a middle ground after a tough fight and PCs typically get up and brush themselves off with little in the way of future penalties or concerns (shy of the rare DM that hands out diseases on a semi-regular basis, poisons do not even last beyond the encounter).

And they are not quite supermen, but just superheroes (who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men).

 

[Sunseeker]

It's not that they are invincible and it's not that they are supermen.

It's that they are nearly invincible. It's difficult to heavily challenge players without going overboard. One almost never sees just one PC die or PCs significantly penalized after a fight. Either the PCs can handle the fight and all PCs survive (and except for some mostly renewable resources, are basically unscathed for the next fight), or multiple PCs die up to and including a TPK. There doesn't often seem to be a middle ground after a tough fight and PCs typically get up and brush themselves off with little in the way of future penalties or concerns (shy of the rare DM that hands out diseases on a semi-regular basis, poisons do not even last beyond the encounter).

And they are not quite supermen, but just superheroes (who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men).

They wouldn't be the heroes if they were just normal men.

That aside, I really think this all stinks highly of "I don't like 4e-ism" and "you're not doing it right". I've ever been able to challenge my players and be challenged as a player by other DMs in 4e. It's not hard. If it means making those orcs a little tougher than we would assume they should be. I've burned up their healing surges with monster trickery, I've pounded them into the ground, and yes, killed them. It's not really hard, I just think people are quick to look at 4e's numbers and say "OMG SO OP!" The reality here too is that things were a lot weaker in earlier editions. This doesn't mean players are OP in 4e, I found almost everything to be scaled up on 4e.

Think of this way: Going from white to black seems like a huge difference, but it doesn't mean black is in the wrong. It means neither side found the appropriate middle ground.

Me personally? I like heroically powerful heroes, I know few people who want to play Luke Skywalker for the moisture-farm-boy part. "normal people" don't have adventures, they don't discover their innate talents, nor do they find magical rings and fight dragons. Why? Because they're normal. Even LOTR, which seemingly starts with a large helping of "normals" really pushes them farther than their actually "normal" counterparts would go.

 

[Essenti]

... Me personally? I like heroically powerful heroes, I know few people who want to play Luke Skywalker for the moisture-farm-boy part. "normal people" don't have adventures, they don't discover their innate talents, nor do they find magical rings and fight dragons. Why? Because they're normal. Even LOTR, which seemingly starts with a large helping of "normals" really pushes them farther than their actually "normal" counterparts would go.

See, now, the funny thing is, just about every hero in actual human history was in fact, a normal person without magical whiz-bang super-mario special powers. What really separates anyone from the act of being a hero is going out there and doing it. Normal People can be heroes too!

While I love playing 4e, it's not the only way to play the game, especially if DDN manages to offer many levels of play ranging from BECMI through 4E. I wouldn't be averse to taking out a 1e-like rogue and plumbing the depths of countless dungeons against horrors unknown and mundane traps aplenty with nothing but a little skill, a lot of imagination, and a whole lot of guts.

 

[Sunseeker]

See, now, the funny thing is, just about every hero in actual human history was in fact, a normal person without magical whiz-bang super-mario special powers. What really separates anyone from the act of being a hero is going out there and doing it. Normal People can be heroes too!

D&D isn't exactly human history now is it? Certainly you can run adventures in this vein(low tech, little to no magic, ect..) and for them I would agree with low power levels. But for the rest of the fantasy setting? Not so much.

 

[Essenti]

D&D isn't exactly human history now is it? Certainly you can run adventures in this vein(low tech, little to no magic, ect..) and for them I would agree with low power levels. But for the rest of the fantasy setting? Not so much.[/COLOR][/FONT]

I fully agree with you there, but you did say that normal people can't be heroes... That is the only part in your argument I can find fault with, and the only reason I really mentioned human history.

 

[Argyle King]

I'm not quite sure how I feel. Overall, I think this article leaves me feeling slightly negative toward the game.

 

[Sunseeker]

I fully agree with you there, but you did say that normal people can't be heroes... That is the only part in your argument I can find fault with, and the only reason I really mentioned human history.

I was referring to "normal people" within a fantasy setting.

 

[Tallifer]

I wonder what the writer meant when he (seems to) say that he could ignore his character's abilities and gain most of his mechanical benefits from BSing. Does that just mean that his character (which sounds like a warlord) roleplayed like a warlord and told the dungeon master what his intent was, and then the dungeon master, knowing the mechanics, utilized the appropriate character skill/power/feature to make it happen... or did he just roleplay cool ideas and the dungeon master let the imagined effects happen?

The former is an interesting fix for incorporating simulationists or roleplayers into the tactical part f a game. The latter is having storytelling trump the game, and as such is not much to my liking.

 

[Kzach]

What I find interesting is that none of the playtesters are allowed to talk about the mechanics of the game. What are they afraid of? Feedback?

BOOM! *tish*

 

[mkill]

Thanks for the writeup. However, the key question is still unanswered: Does 5E attract hot gamer chicks? Everything else can be houseruled.