Find Steed

RulesJD

First Post
Is there any guidance as to what AL allows to be summoned as a steed? So far the only thing I've seen at tables is the War Horse. But the spell specifically calls out for better mounts as the Paladin levels. Any guidance on good breaking points/mounts to ask for? Obviously Pegasus, Hippo, and Nightmare comes to mind depending on the level/alignment/etc.
 

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kalani

First Post
With DM permission, you should be able to summon any mount-like beast from the PHB (appendix D) or the Monster Manual (Appendix A). Expect considerable table variation, as anything other than a riding horse/war horse requires DM permission.

It was clarified today by Greg Marks that characters with the Steeder Mount certificate can also summon Steeders with the Find Steed spell. Given the exclusive nature of certificates and the way this certificate is intended to be used - DM permission is not required in order to summon steeders in this way.
 

Coredump

First Post
It is completely DM discretion, but....

I think the spell itself indicates that it is meant to provide a steed, not a combat beast. So while I would agree on the beasts getting more powerful for higher level Paladins, (I believe) they should still be 'just a steed'.

One DM uses increased spell slots for increased CR.

2nd: CR 1/2 max
3rd: CR 1
4th: CR 2
5th: CR 4

Seems like a good system to me.
 

RulesJD

First Post
With DM permission, you should be able to summon any mount-like beast from the PHB (appendix D) or the Monster Manual (Appendix A). Expect considerable table variation, as anything other than a riding horse/war horse requires DM permission.

It was clarified today by Greg Marks that characters with the Steeder Mount certificate can also summon Steeders with the Find Steed spell. Given the exclusive nature of certificates and the way this certificate is intended to be used - DM permission is not required in order to summon steeders in this way.

Interesting. Was hoping Pegasus/Nightmare/Hippos would be available, but it looks like not. I'm guessing common choices can be, in theory:

1. Brown Bear
2. Dire Wolf
3. Elephant (wooo)
4. Giant Ape (wooooooooooooooooooooo exotic saddle time)
5. Giant Boar
6. Giant Eagle
7. Giant Crocodile
8. Giant Elk
9. Giant Hyena
10. Giant Lizard (even mentions being used as a pet)
11. Giant Owl (Flyby is pretty good)
12. Giant Spder
13. Lion
14. Mammoth
15. Phase Spider
16. Polar Bear
17. Rhinoceros
18. Winter Wolf
 

kalani

First Post
All of the above options would require DM permission. Steeder mounts and riding/war horses do not require such permission.

Caveat: Phase Spiders and Winter Wolves are monstrocities, not beasts. You could not choose these options as they are not a legal player option.
 

Mithreinmaethor

First Post
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Inconnunom

First Post
I don't see why that matters? It's normal mount rules as an intelligent mount (which it is).

It matters because your giant ape mount gets two attacks at 3d10+6 each. Maybe you as a DM would allow it, but I wouldn't.

Caveat: Phase Spiders and Winter Wolves are monstrocities, not beasts. You could not choose these options as they are not a legal player option.

Unless there is a new AL guidance on the spell, the only requirement is that it is an animal, not that it has type beast.

"(Your DM mught allow other animals to be summoned as steeds.)"

I agree that winter wolves and phase spiders are not on the list of Official legal creatures, but Pegasi are.


Note, that I'm really hoping the DMs will do the right thing and not be enablers of poor game behavior. I have a Giant spider as a mount in the underdark (OOTA). For both for my character's personal backstory and the adventure's setting, the theme works well.
 

kalani

First Post
The rule I am referencing is an AL-Rule, specifically the following from the AL-FAQ

When a character casts a spell that summons or creates a creature, from which rules sources may the creature be selected?
The player whose character casts the spell may select an appropriate creature from the sources allowed by the Adventurer's League Player's Guide. If, and only if, no appropriate creature is available in those sources, the player may select an appropriate creature from the Dungeon Masters Basic Rules. In the rare instance in which there is no appropriate creature in those rules, either, the Dungeon Master may select an appropriate creature from the Monster Manual.

As I said above, this gives players the choice of a Beast from the Monster Manual (Appendix A), or a mount-like creature from the Player's Handbook (Appendix D).

As there is at least one creature you can summon from the above two sources, the DM Basic Rules is not even referenced (let alone other creatures in the Monster Manual). The only time that winter wolf or phase spider would be an option in AL, is if there were zero legal targets in either of the above sources.

You can find a complete list of AL-legal creatures stickied at the top of this forum. The list was created by me in response to the above FAQ, and was later used to create the following supplemental FAQ by one of the Admins, although a list for Find Steed was deliberately omitted from the list (as all non-horses require DM permission).
 
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Mithreinmaethor

First Post
I don't see why that matters? It's normal mount rules as an intelligent mount (which it is).

It makes a HUGE difference.

Independent Creature - Attacks whether mounted or dismounted. Thus allowing the PC and its Mount to attack each turn.

Controlled Creature - Attacks only when dismounted if the DM determines it would do so normally.
 
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Mithreinmaethor

First Post
It is completely DM discretion, but....

I think the spell itself indicates that it is meant to provide a steed, not a combat beast. So while I would agree on the beasts getting more powerful for higher level Paladins, (I believe) they should still be 'just a steed'.

One DM uses increased spell slots for increased CR.

2nd: CR 1/2 max
3rd: CR 1
4th: CR 2
5th: CR 4

Seems like a good system to me.

Since it looks like the CR maxes out at CR7 the DM could allow the CR to increase at every level that the Paladin adds a spell slot as follows:

Paladin Level 5 = CR 1 or less
Paladin Level 7 = CR 2 or less
Paladin Level 9 = CR 3 or less
Paladin Level 11 = CR 4 or less
Paladin Level 13 = CR 5 or less
Paladin Level 15 = CR 6 or less
Paladin Level 17 = CR 7 or less

So any Large, or Medium if the PC is Small, creature from the below list copied from the Sticky:

Beasts (PHB Appendix D)

Beasts (CR 0): bat, cat,frog, hawk (falcon), owl, rat, raven
Beasts (CR 1/8): mastiff, mule, poisonous snake,
Beasts (CR 1/4): boar, constrictor snake, panther, riding horse, wolf
Beasts (CR 1/2): black bear, crocodile, reef shark, warhorse
Beasts (CR 1): brown bear, dire wolf, giant eagle, giant spider, lion, tiger


Beasts (MM Appendix A) - All of the beasts from the PHB, plus the following:

Beasts (CR 0): baboon, badger, crab, deer, eagle, giant fire beetle, goat, hyena, jackal, lizard, octopus, quipper, scorpion, seahorse, spider, vulture
Beasts (CR 1/8): blood hawk, camel, flying snake, giant crab, giant rat, giant weasel, pony,
Beasts (CR 1/4): axe beak, draft horse, elk, giant badger, giant bat, giant centipede, giant frog, giant lizard, giant owl, giant poisonous snake, giant wolf spider,
Beasts (CR 1/2): ape, giant goat, giant seahorse, giant wasp,
Beasts (CR 1): giant eagle, giant hyena, giant octopus, giant toad, giant vulture, tiger
Beasts (CR 2): giant boar, giant constrictor snake, giant elk, hunter shark, polar bear, rhinocerous, saber-toothed tiger,
Beasts (CR 3): giant scorpion, killer whale,
Beasts (CR 4): elephant,
Beasts (CR 5): giant crocodile, giant shark,
Beasts (CR 6): mammoth
Beasts (CR 7): giant ape
 

Inconnunom

First Post
As I said above, this gives players the choice of a Beast from the Monster Manual (Appendix A), or a mount-like creature from the Player's Handbook (Appendix D).

Ahh yep you did say that earlier. Too much time had passed since I had read this post last and I had forgotten. :)
 

RulesJD

First Post
It makes a HUGE difference.

Independent Creature - Attacks whether mounted or dismounted. Thus allowing the PC and its Mount to attack each turn.

Controlled Creature - Attacks only when dismounted if the DM determines it would do so normally.

I know. And the PHB defines Independent Creature as Intelligent Creature. Find Steed = Intelligent Creature. Ergo, Find Steed = Independent Mount, just as the normal PHB rules for a mount says. So your mount can attack while the Paladin is mounted and it acts "independently" (aka player control) when the Paladin is dismounted.
 

Mithreinmaethor

First Post
I know. And the PHB defines Independent Creature as Intelligent Creature. Find Steed = Intelligent Creature. Ergo, Find Steed = Independent Mount, just as the normal PHB rules for a mount says. So your mount can attack while the Paladin is mounted and it acts "independently" (aka player control) when the Paladin is dismounted.

Sorry I should have posted this one as well, that is my mistake but here it is now .... https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/635938490274811905?s=09


Find Steed mount is NOT an Independent Creature.
 

kalani

First Post
That may be the designers intent, however DMs in AL are free to use/ignore Sage Advice at their discretion. In this situation, the rules as written are ambiguous enough for DMs to determine that the mount is an intelligent summoned creature (which would have its own initiative and actions); a non-intelligent mount (despite the 6 INT, there is evidence that animal intelligence is different - the ape for example has 7 INT); or as a spell construct.

Expect table variation
 

Inconnunom

First Post
To add to that, The steed summoned from Find Steed is mechanically unique. It does not have a separate initiative order but is can take its own attack action. I don't see an issue (using standard mounts) with having the mount attack while a player is mounted. If someone really wanted to be a stickler and argue that that it is a controlled mount while you are riding, then you can just get off your mount, let it attack and get back on.

That being said, I think that players should stick to 1/4 to 1 CR mounts. If it dies, then it is a spell slot to bring it back.it isn't the end of the world.
 

RulesJD

First Post
Sorry I should have posted this one as well, that is my mistake but here it is now .... https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/635938490274811905?s=09


Find Steed mount is NOT an Independent Creature.

Well that's pretty freaking stupid. What's the point of even giving it an intelligence then? I'd be surprised if this isn't retracted. After all, the "share spells" with your mount is clearly intended for combat buffs like Haste, etc. Given how :):):):):):) they designed the Beastmaster I guess I shouldn't be surprised how poor they view companions. Looks like the best "pet" spell is now Animate Dead.

*edit* Actually, it looks like the Find Steed is still the best pet spell BUT ONLY if you don't mount it. Because then it's still an intelligent mount that can take all its normal actions, including attacking. Given the fluff of the spell it would be hard to imagine the steed not obeying commands to attack, etc. Again, colossally stupid ruling that doesn't make any sense.
 
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Mithreinmaethor

First Post
To add to that, The steed summoned from Find Steed is mechanically unique. It does not have a separate initiative order but is can take its own attack action. I don't see an issue (using standard mounts) with having the mount attack while a player is mounted. If someone really wanted to be a stickler and argue that that it is a controlled mount while you are riding, then you can just get off your mount, let it attack and get back on.

That being said, I think that players should stick to 1/4 to 1 CR mounts. If it dies, then it is a spell slot to bring it back.it isn't the end of the world.

Well according to Kalani any "Beast" of the appropriate size is available. So I guess for 200 gps a Scale armor wearing Giant Ape at level 5 for a Paladin it is.

I do so love the irony of how the AL admins are so adamant about the "Season Origins" are used to control "cheese" and "power creep" but will ignore items in Sage Advice to help reduce the "cheese" and "power creep".

I think what it really comes down to is that the AL Admins are the Head DMs for the Shared Experience/Organized Play that we call Adventurer's League. These types of adjudications should be done by them so that there is no question for the Sub-DMs (the ones that run at stores, cons, online etc) have guidance on how to deal with such situations. A newer DM could easily look at the lack of guidance as well if the admins have not given insight into this then I guess I should just allow it. This can truly lead to some crazy situations like noted above.
 
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Mithreinmaethor

First Post
Well that's pretty freaking stupid. What's the point of even giving it an intelligence then? I'd be surprised if this isn't retracted. After all, the "share spells" with your mount is clearly intended for combat buffs like Haste, etc. Given how :):):):):):) they designed the Beastmaster I guess I shouldn't be surprised how poor they view companions. Looks like the best "pet" spell is now Animate Dead.

*edit* Actually, it looks like the Find Steed is still the best pet spell BUT ONLY if you don't mount it. Because then it's still an intelligent mount that can take all its normal actions, including attacking. Given the fluff of the spell it would be hard to imagine the steed not obeying commands to attack, etc. Again, colossally stupid ruling that doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense with how they wanted to keep the balance in the game.
 

Inconnunom

First Post
Well according to Kalani any "Beast" of the appropriate size is available. So I guess for 200 gps a Scale armor wearing Giant Ape at level 5 for a Paladin it is.

I do so love the irony of how the AL admins are so adamant about the "Season Origins" are used to control "cheese" and "power creep" but will ignore items in Sage Advice to help reduce the "cheese" and "power creep".

I think what it really comes down to is that the AL Admins are the Head DMs for the Shared Experience/Organized Play that we call Adventurer's League. These types of adjudications should be done by them so that there is no question for the Sub-DMs (the ones that run at stores, cons, online etc) have guidance on how to deal with such situations. A newer DM could easily look at the lack of guidance as well if the admins have not given insight into this then I guess I should just allow it. This can truly lead to some crazy situations like noted above.

I'd rather not be micromanaged on every nuance and I'm sure they don't want that headache either. The DM can flat out tell you nothing outside of the normal spell. This is really a non-issue in my opinion. Do you really know a DM who would allow a giant ape? That sounds like a slippery slope if I've ever heard one.
 

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