Find Steed

[Mithreinmaethor]

It is completely DM discretion, but....

I think the spell itself indicates that it is meant to provide a steed, not a combat beast. So while I would agree on the beasts getting more powerful for higher level Paladins, (I believe) they should still be 'just a steed'.

One DM uses increased spell slots for increased CR.

2nd: CR 1/2 max
3rd: CR 1
4th: CR 2
5th: CR 4

Seems like a good system to me.

Since it looks like the CR maxes out at CR7 the DM could allow the CR to increase at every level that the Paladin adds a spell slot as follows:

Paladin Level 5 = CR 1 or less
Paladin Level 7 = CR 2 or less
Paladin Level 9 = CR 3 or less
Paladin Level 11 = CR 4 or less
Paladin Level 13 = CR 5 or less
Paladin Level 15 = CR 6 or less
Paladin Level 17 = CR 7 or less

So any Large, or Medium if the PC is Small, creature from the below list copied from the Sticky:

Beasts (PHB Appendix D)

Beasts (CR 0): bat, cat,frog, hawk (falcon), owl, rat, raven
Beasts (CR 1/8): mastiff, mule, poisonous snake,
Beasts (CR 1/4): boar, constrictor snake, panther, riding horse, wolf
Beasts (CR 1/2): black bear, crocodile, reef shark, warhorse
Beasts (CR 1): brown bear, dire wolf, giant eagle, giant spider, lion, tiger


Beasts (MM Appendix A) - All of the beasts from the PHB, plus the following:

Beasts (CR 0): baboon, badger, crab, deer, eagle, giant fire beetle, goat, hyena, jackal, lizard, octopus, quipper, scorpion, seahorse, spider, vulture
Beasts (CR 1/8): blood hawk, camel, flying snake, giant crab, giant rat, giant weasel, pony,
Beasts (CR 1/4): axe beak, draft horse, elk, giant badger, giant bat, giant centipede, giant frog, giant lizard, giant owl, giant poisonous snake, giant wolf spider,
Beasts (CR 1/2): ape, giant goat, giant seahorse, giant wasp,
Beasts (CR 1): giant eagle, giant hyena, giant octopus, giant toad, giant vulture, tiger
Beasts (CR 2): giant boar, giant constrictor snake, giant elk, hunter shark, polar bear, rhinocerous, saber-toothed tiger,
Beasts (CR 3): giant scorpion, killer whale,
Beasts (CR 4): elephant,
Beasts (CR 5): giant crocodile, giant shark,
Beasts (CR 6): mammoth
Beasts (CR 7): giant ape

 

[Inconnunom]

As I said above, this gives players the choice of a Beast from the Monster Manual (Appendix A), or a mount-like creature from the Player's Handbook (Appendix D).

Ahh yep you did say that earlier. Too much time had passed since I had read this post last and I had forgotten.

 

[RulesJD]

It makes a HUGE difference.

Independent Creature - Attacks whether mounted or dismounted. Thus allowing the PC and its Mount to attack each turn.

Controlled Creature - Attacks only when dismounted if the DM determines it would do so normally.

I know. And the PHB defines Independent Creature as Intelligent Creature. Find Steed = Intelligent Creature. Ergo, Find Steed = Independent Mount, just as the normal PHB rules for a mount says. So your mount can attack while the Paladin is mounted and it acts "independently" (aka player control) when the Paladin is dismounted.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

I know. And the PHB defines Independent Creature as Intelligent Creature. Find Steed = Intelligent Creature. Ergo, Find Steed = Independent Mount, just as the normal PHB rules for a mount says. So your mount can attack while the Paladin is mounted and it acts "independently" (aka player control) when the Paladin is dismounted.

Sorry I should have posted this one as well, that is my mistake but here it is now .... https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/635938490274811905?s=09


Find Steed mount is NOT an Independent Creature.

 

[kalani]

That may be the designers intent, however DMs in AL are free to use/ignore Sage Advice at their discretion. In this situation, the rules as written are ambiguous enough for DMs to determine that the mount is an intelligent summoned creature (which would have its own initiative and actions); a non-intelligent mount (despite the 6 INT, there is evidence that animal intelligence is different - the ape for example has 7 INT); or as a spell construct.

Expect table variation

 

[Inconnunom]

To add to that, The steed summoned from Find Steed is mechanically unique. It does not have a separate initiative order but is can take its own attack action. I don't see an issue (using standard mounts) with having the mount attack while a player is mounted. If someone really wanted to be a stickler and argue that that it is a controlled mount while you are riding, then you can just get off your mount, let it attack and get back on.

That being said, I think that players should stick to 1/4 to 1 CR mounts. If it dies, then it is a spell slot to bring it back.it isn't the end of the world.

 

[RulesJD]

Sorry I should have posted this one as well, that is my mistake but here it is now .... https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/635938490274811905?s=09


Find Steed mount is NOT an Independent Creature.

Well that's pretty freaking stupid. What's the point of even giving it an intelligence then? I'd be surprised if this isn't retracted. After all, the "share spells" with your mount is clearly intended for combat buffs like Haste, etc. Given how they designed the Beastmaster I guess I shouldn't be surprised how poor they view companions. Looks like the best "pet" spell is now Animate Dead.

*edit* Actually, it looks like the Find Steed is still the best pet spell BUT ONLY if you don't mount it. Because then it's still an intelligent mount that can take all its normal actions, including attacking. Given the fluff of the spell it would be hard to imagine the steed not obeying commands to attack, etc. Again, colossally stupid ruling that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

To add to that, The steed summoned from Find Steed is mechanically unique. It does not have a separate initiative order but is can take its own attack action. I don't see an issue (using standard mounts) with having the mount attack while a player is mounted. If someone really wanted to be a stickler and argue that that it is a controlled mount while you are riding, then you can just get off your mount, let it attack and get back on.

That being said, I think that players should stick to 1/4 to 1 CR mounts. If it dies, then it is a spell slot to bring it back.it isn't the end of the world.

Well according to Kalani any "Beast" of the appropriate size is available. So I guess for 200 gps a Scale armor wearing Giant Ape at level 5 for a Paladin it is.

I do so love the irony of how the AL admins are so adamant about the "Season Origins" are used to control "cheese" and "power creep" but will ignore items in Sage Advice to help reduce the "cheese" and "power creep".

I think what it really comes down to is that the AL Admins are the Head DMs for the Shared Experience/Organized Play that we call Adventurer's League. These types of adjudications should be done by them so that there is no question for the Sub-DMs (the ones that run at stores, cons, online etc) have guidance on how to deal with such situations. A newer DM could easily look at the lack of guidance as well if the admins have not given insight into this then I guess I should just allow it. This can truly lead to some crazy situations like noted above.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Well that's pretty freaking stupid. What's the point of even giving it an intelligence then? I'd be surprised if this isn't retracted. After all, the "share spells" with your mount is clearly intended for combat buffs like Haste, etc. Given how they designed the Beastmaster I guess I shouldn't be surprised how poor they view companions. Looks like the best "pet" spell is now Animate Dead.

*edit* Actually, it looks like the Find Steed is still the best pet spell BUT ONLY if you don't mount it. Because then it's still an intelligent mount that can take all its normal actions, including attacking. Given the fluff of the spell it would be hard to imagine the steed not obeying commands to attack, etc. Again, colossally stupid ruling that doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense with how they wanted to keep the balance in the game.

 

[Inconnunom]

Well according to Kalani any "Beast" of the appropriate size is available. So I guess for 200 gps a Scale armor wearing Giant Ape at level 5 for a Paladin it is.

I do so love the irony of how the AL admins are so adamant about the "Season Origins" are used to control "cheese" and "power creep" but will ignore items in Sage Advice to help reduce the "cheese" and "power creep".

I think what it really comes down to is that the AL Admins are the Head DMs for the Shared Experience/Organized Play that we call Adventurer's League. These types of adjudications should be done by them so that there is no question for the Sub-DMs (the ones that run at stores, cons, online etc) have guidance on how to deal with such situations. A newer DM could easily look at the lack of guidance as well if the admins have not given insight into this then I guess I should just allow it. This can truly lead to some crazy situations like noted above.

I'd rather not be micromanaged on every nuance and I'm sure they don't want that headache either. The DM can flat out tell you nothing outside of the normal spell. This is really a non-issue in my opinion. Do you really know a DM who would allow a giant ape? That sounds like a slippery slope if I've ever heard one.