Find the Anime Challenge

[Kafen]

Ah, I see... I was mostly AFK in regards to the site for a while as you can see from my registration date. The last time I posted, the site was doing its first donation drive, and I shelled out some cash. *hides* Err - onto the art topic, I suppose there will always be people that dislike anime. I defer to the wisdom of the forum regulars as to the particulars.

 

[WizarDru]

Ah, I see... I was mostly AFK in regards to the site for a while as you can see from my registration date. The last time I posted, the site was doing its first donation drive, and I shelled out some cash. *hides* Err - onto the art topic, I suppose there will always be people that dislike anime. I defer to the wisdom of the forum regulars as to the particulars.

That would explain much. For the last year, in particular, there has been more than a little vocal debate not just about anime art, but that anime's style (and as Nifft points out 'videogames') have strongly influenced D&D...and never for the better.

I've been an anime fan since 1978. Because of that, I think I have a pretty good perspective of what kind of influences anime has wrought and has had wrought upon it. It would ridiculous to say that a lot of current comic book and fantasy art has not felt the influence of anime and manga. We saw American comic book artists (Frank Miller being the first very visible example) being heavily influenced by Japanese influences (note Miller's covers for the US versions of Lone Wolf & Cub, for example).

I can certainly understand that many people find most or all anime unappealing, in the same way some folks find the Brothers Hildebrant or WAR's work unappealing. What I take objection to is the intimation that somehow D&D has internalized, both in art and rules design, some nebulous concept of what the derogatory commenter considers to be 'anime'...and when called on it hedges, hems and haws. I don't like all anime universally, any more than some folks approve of every fantasy author or science fiction movie. In fact, as anime's visibility and availability have risen (and as I have grown older), I find there are many series that I really don't like AT ALL. But no one ever claims that D&D became to 'Star Warsy', 'Star Treky' or too 'Peter Jacksony', despite many people not liking those particular things. No one even claims that D&D became too 'GURPSy' or 'Science Fictiony', for that matter. But 'anime' or 'videogamey'? Apparently that's easy. However, many of the rules and ideas that are put forth as examples of an 'anime' influence have their direct antecedents in other game systems, stretching back for over 20 years, well predating the rise in popularity of anime in the US.

The point being is that whenever these terms are flung around in this manner, it's often short-hand for 'something that I don't like', instead of being an accurate representation of the material at hand. When many people say that don't like D&D 3.x because it's become so influenced by anime, what they really mean is 'I remember seeing an episode of Dragonball Z or Naruto and it was ridiculous with all those super-powers and so forth and didn't like it all and all this stuff like feats and prestige classes and other assorted rules are just as bad'. No one appears to be claiming that D&D is becoming like Death Note, Gantz, Love Hina, Monster, BlackJack, Cowboy Bebop, Haruhi Suzumiya's Melancholy, Claymore or a hundred other shows. 'D&D as anime' critics often try to act as though these are rare exceptions, despite the fact that they are phenomenally popular.

What's more ironic is that more than a few anime shows list D&D as their roots, not the other way around. Record of Lodoss War (in all it's incarnations) is based on a series of novels that are themselves based on a series of house-ruled D&D games. Shows like Slayers and Those Who Hunt Elves are more D&D parodies, but they clearly shows their roots. Shows like Beserk and Claymore fit right in to the D&D genre (although Claymore is more like True20/fantasy M&M) and again take direct inspiration from D&D. Certainly the whole idea of western-style fantasy didn't really take off with any sort of volume in anime until AFTER D&D was a national craze in the US.

The point being that some it's OK for folks to not like anime, it's OK for folks not like an edition of D&D...heck it's even OK to claim that anime has changed D&D. But don't be surprised when some folks who are familiar with both are going to question that assertion and refute it.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Vincent Van Gogh is clearly anime influenced, so he sucks. Don't tell me that it's ukiyo-e or something...it's clearly furrin' so it's Wrongbadart.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

That would explain much. For the last year, in particular, there has been more than a little vocal debate not just about anime art, but that anime's style (and as Nifft points out 'videogames') have strongly influenced D&D...and never for the better.

*snip*

The point being that some it's OK for folks to not like anime, it's OK for folks not like an edition of D&D...heck it's even OK to claim that anime has changed D&D. But don't be surprised when some folks who are familiar with both are going to question that assertion and refute it.

[/thread]

 

[Hussar]

Ah, I see... I was mostly AFK in regards to the site for a while as you can see from my registration date. The last time I posted, the site was doing its first donation drive, and I shelled out some cash. *hides* Err - onto the art topic, I suppose there will always be people that dislike anime. I defer to the wisdom of the forum regulars as to the particulars.

Heh, AFK in THIS account anyway.

*wink and throws a root.*

Guys, look, sorry, I'm not backing out. Just got INSANELY busy around here and will be so for a while long. I'm NOT reneging. I just don't have time right now. When I've got a bit of free time I'll get back to this.

As far as moving the bar goes, I haven't made ANY decision, one way or another, so, please, feel free to continue posting examples, add anything constructive, but, please, leave the discussion of the actual final decision alone for the moment. As I say, I'm not backing out, and I'm not finished yet. Just REALLY, REALLY busy.

Sorry for the delay :\

 

[Kafen]

I only have this account on En World. 4e research for my tabletop group is the only reason I came back.

Eh, I wish you luck with this one, Hussar. Some people are going to disagree regardless of your take on it, methinks.

 

[Singing Smurf]

That would explain much. For the last year, in particular, there has been more than a little vocal debate not just about anime art, but that anime's style (and as Nifft points out 'videogames') have strongly influenced D&D...and never for the better.

<snipped much quality verbiage>

The point being that some it's OK for folks to not like anime, it's OK for folks not like an edition of D&D...heck it's even OK to claim that anime has changed D&D. But don't be surprised when some folks who are familiar with both are going to question that assertion and refute it.

This summarizes my feelings on the matter much better than I could have. Thanks!

(maybe this should be Hussar's new .sig)

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Sadly, I really think the terms of Hussar's challenge HAVE been met by any fair standard.

If it had been FIVE pieces of art, it would be a tough call. TEN (out of the multiple hundreds produced for 3.5) would have been out of the question.

But three? This thread HAS managed to dig up three with significant anime influence, including the UDON one that would be at home in a (really high quality, admittedly) actual manga.

Hussar, I would suggest you put the promised line in your .sig, but frame it in such a way that it can clearly be seen as sarcastic hyperbole, with a link to the findings in this thread. That would follow both the letter (find three pieces of anime-influenced art) and the spirit (actually demonstrate significant anime influence) of the competition, no?

 

[Zamkaizer]

Gantz

Oh god, I would hope D&D isn't being influenced by that trash. I thoroughly enjoyed your post though, sir.

 

[Hussar]

Phew. Sorry about the delay folks. I've been busier than all get out the last little while. Honestly, this is the first chance I've had to sit down and finish this off. Again, apologies for the delay.

Let us recap shall we? To start things off, this was the original challenge:

To anyone who can find three examples of anime art from any WOTC Dungeons and Dragons book, I will add the following to my sig for a year:

____________ is the greatest god(dess) of gaming and has proven me to be the biggest schmuck of the internet. They have defeated my anime challenge and I hereby declare that 3e art is fully inspired by anime.

So, we had to find three images that were not just sort of anime looking, but, really anime looking (or manga looking if you prefer). There were many entries and some close shaves. In the end, it was the following images that seemed to have generated the most consensus:

In no particular order:

1. An image of a tiefling from Races of Faerun. Definitely on board with this one. Dark Seraphim scores one. There were two other posted with this image, but, the first was straight up comic book and the third lacked any real anime styling.

2. We have another by the same artist from Races of Faerun. While it's a bit wonky, it's a fair cop. Props to Zamkaizer for spotting this one.

3. This one got kind of buried way back, but, I think it deserves to be considered a positive. Its from the Player's Guide to Eberron. Props to Deekin for this find.

We had a couple of close calls that were later disqualified.


1. A reprint from Paizo, which WOTC had never done before and I suspect was done because of the ending of 3e. The fact that this image was released after I started this is also something of a strike against it. Obviously, I could not comment on anything released in the future, only in the past. So, sorry, this one, while definitely showing anime influence, is disqualified.

2. A gnome alchemist from Races of Stone - was later shown to be pretty much standard short arse proportions as seen in artists like Hildebrant.

There are probably other images, but, I've spent enough time looking around.

Ok, so, the challenge was answered. There were definitely three examples found. However, I can't really declare any single winner since the challenge was to find 3 examples, not find one at a time. And, I know that people are going to scream bloody murder about this, but, no one poster actually answered the challenge. So, I will amend my sig, but, not quite in the way that the challenge specified.

I did learn a fair bit from this thread though. For one, people tend to see anime where it really isn't. Also, I think it's pretty safe to say that D&D art is about as anime influenced as any other pop art form. At the end of the day, I think it's safe to say:

Myth Busted