Finesse Vs. Strength

[drnuncheon]

Question: When is a high dex, light armored, rapier wielding fighter ever as or more effective than the typical high strength platemale wearing jock-fighter? In terms of raw damage the Strength themed character seems to always win. What about other areas? And what would they be good at that a typical rogue wouldn't be better at as well???

I wouldn't ever go that route as a straight fighter, honestly - you're far better off doing it as a fighter-rogue. A lot of people have trouble remembering that rogue doesn't equal thief anymore. A swashbuckler is an excellent candidate for rogue levels - it gives you the skills you need to be mobile, dashing, and to woo the ladies.

Going rogue gives you the crucial Uncanny Dodge, which prevents your AC from dropping like a rock if you're surprised. Evasion's nice, too.

Use your mobility to get into flanking positions (and thus score sneak attack damage), and then your better BAB and hit points to actually last longer in melee than your standard rogue. Remember that skillwise you can be just as good as the full rogue, just in fewer skills. Pick a few to focus on: Tumble, Bluff, Balance and Gather Information are good candidates. (Use your fighter levels to keep up in Climb and Jump).

Sack the QB! Make it your mission to handle enemy spellcasters. Again, use your superior mobility (through the Feat or Tumble skill) to get past their 'meat shields' and stop them from casting at your party.

There's a lot of ways to make the 'swashbuckler' archetype work - but since it's a highly dextrous, skill-based archetype, it only makes sense to use a highly dextrous, skill based-class.

J

 

[Maldur]

A whole party of them would make a very nice adventure. More dashing and worldly than the average party but fun!

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Question: When is a high dex, light armored, rapier wielding fighter ever as or more effective than the typical high strength platemale wearing jock-fighter? In terms of raw damage the Strength themed character seems to always win.

The damage dealer in the group of one of my friends was a lightly armored Fighter/Ranger L1. He played from level 4 to level 12 or so. The way he did lots of damage as a Dex fighter was by using TWF/Imp.TWF/Imp.Critical with twin keen GMW rapiers. With four to five attacks per round, the damage from Weapon Specialization and enhancement bonuses became even more important than with a two hander or weapon and shield.

At higher levels, I've also seen dual-wielded weapons of speed be used rather effectively, since they stack with each other. (True, they don't work with haste.) If you don't mind munchkining, you can always use two rapiers and a mithral breastplate with armor spikes (or blade boots from FRCS), and then take Multiweapon fighting. (Since technically, you have two [or more] off-hand weapons.)

 

[I'm A Banana]

*Should* Dex-based warriors be able to stand in terms of damage?!

I was under the impression that the advantage of a Dex based warrior lied in two areas -- missle combat, and AC.

A Str-based fighter's advantage lies in melee combat, and damage.

A finessing warrior is one who gets out of the way, who dodges and weaves, who hits and runs, who stays back and pelts. They are effective, in general, at not getting hit, but in pegging things from a distance. Archers are a good candidate for this, as are things like halfling knife-fighters, or gnomish axe-jugglers. Small weapons, easily tossed, or something light enough to make sure it doesn't bear you down when getting the heck out of melee so your lightly armored ass isn't trapped.

A strong warrior is one who walks up and hits things. They don't worry so much about getting out of the way (which is where Con or a high AC come in most handy), but their logic is that if they can hit something and make it stop wigglin', it can't try to hit 'em anymore. They don't need to be untouchable -- they just need to touch more of them than they can of him.

Basically, a dex-based fighter probably should never dish out the same or greater damage than a strength-based fighter, because a dex-based fighter is all about the evasion and the dodging and the not getting hit, while the str-based fighter is more about the hitting things and making them stop moving before they need to avoid it.

At the same time, a str-based fighter's gonna have a tough time of it when he find he's bit off more than he can chew...

And, basically, if you want a finesse that dishes out some damage, go the rogue route and get a payoff for not being a walking tin can in the form of sneak attack -- which is basically striking quickly at vital areas. That's the idea of 'you don't have to hit hard, you just have to hit the right spot'.

 

[mmu1]

The problem is that, due to the maximum AC bonus caps, a high-Dex "finesse fighter" usually doesn't have a higher AC and isn't any harder to hit than your typical tank.

If he goes the TWF route for maximum damage potential, this problem becomes even worse.

Sure, he can move around a lot - Spring Attack, Tumble, etc. - but always doing one attack per round to avoid getting hit is not a way of being effective as a fighter, and works only as long as the DM lets you get away with it.

Besides, when talking about "high dex fighters" we're talking about swapping STR and DEX, and are assuming CON stays the same, so there's no reason to think the tank will have more hit points. It's just that the tank will kill his enemies much faster, reducing the amount of damage he's exposed to in turn.

 

[Sniktch]

I dunno, we have a drow twin-sword style fighter/tempest who relies on Dex and not Strength and he matches up pretty well against our tank. Between his Dodge/Mobility/Twin Sword Style/Expertise/Off-hand Parry/Spring Attack/Boots of Speed/Defending sword (in offhand) he's pretty unhittable. We're a 14th and 15th level party and this guy's AC is always in the 40's, while most of us are in the high 20, low 30 range.

 

[mmu1]

I dunno, we have a drow twin-sword style fighter/tempest who relies on Dex and not Strength and he matches up pretty well against our tank. Between his Dodge/Mobility/Twin Sword Style/Expertise/Off-hand Parry/Spring Attack/Boots of Speed/Defending sword (in offhand) he's pretty unhittable. We're a 14th and 15th level party and this guy's AC is always in the 40's, while most of us are in the high 20, low 30 range.

Given that you haven't mentioned what stats and equipment they both have, it's a completely meaningless comparison.

You also have two things in there (Dodge and Twin Sword Style) that only apply to one opponent at a time, and both Twin Sword Style and Off-Hand Parry only count against melee attacks.

Mobility shouldn't even be there, since it's strictly situational, same with Haste.

And there's no reason why a tank can't have Expertise.

Incidentally... Let's see: 10+1(Dodge)+2(TSS)+5(Expertise)+2(OHP)+4(Haste)=24

Which means that, with max Expertise, while Hasted, this guy still needs another +16 AC from armor, Dex and Defending Sword to even reach 40. (less when getting hit by an AAO because of Mobility, but that doesn't count) That takes some pretty heavy-duty hardware, or an outrageously high Dex.

Any real "tank" with equivalent gear and stats ought to be able to wipe the floor with him.

Tank AC: 10+1(Dex)+1(Dodge)+10(+2 Full Plate)+4(Large Shield+2)+5(Expertise)+4(Haste)=35

And that's without any Rings of Protection or Amulets of Natural Armor, and with very cheap gear by 15th level standards.

 

[Sniktch]

Given that you haven't mentioned what stats and equipment they both have, it's a completely meaningless comparison.

Given thats its not my character so I don't have the sheet and not entirely relevant to the thread, I didn't post all of that. I didn't expect to be attacked for adding my two cents.

No, its not a meaningless comparison. I just wanted to point out that in my experience, a finesse fighter can stack up against a tank if played properly. The tanks in our games have a mobility problem - as in, platemail cuts into your movement. A properly played Dex oriented fighter should be able to run circles around the encumbered sods, pricking holes in them all the way.

I've seen it done.

Oh, and for numbers, like I said, I don't know exactly what the guy in my game has, but try:

10+6(Dex)+1(Dodge)+2(Twin Sword)+5(Expertise)+2(Off-hand parry)+4(Defender)+4(Haste)+7(+3 mithral shirt)=41. Factor in Mobility, Spring Attack, the Tempest prestige abilities (or Duellist), and the advantage in movement speed, missile combat, and maneuverability, and the finesse fighter stacks up pretty well. And he's better dressed.

 

[mmu1]

Given thats its not my character so I don't have the sheet and not entirely relevant to the thread, I didn't post all of that. I didn't expect to be attacked for adding my two cents.

Get attacked? Who said anything about getting attacked... I just said you were wrong.

Assuming everyone in the party has as much high-end magical gear, I still don't see any reason for this character to have a 10+ point AC advantage over a properly designed tank - unless the magic items distribution is not equal, or the guy playing the tank hasn't equipped him well or min-maxed him to death.

 

[Sniktch]

Yeah, I was on a phone call at work. Everything feels like an attack in that situation

Well, to be honest, our 'tank' has equipped himself with a bunch of high damage gear, but not a lot of protective magic... the AC's would be much closer except that the tank insists on wearing Rhino Hide instead of some proper platemail.

I think they're both extremely playable. If I'm fighting in an enclosed space or in a mass combat situation I'd probably want the tank, but if its an open field or odd terrain (like floating rocks in space or a giant web in a canyon) then personally, I'd prefer the finesse fighter. I think the finesse fighter is much harder to play - you really have to work at reaching his full potential - but they're just as viable if used correctly.