Finland to pay all its citizens 800 euros a month to fight unemployment

[CapnZapp]

To maxperson and everyone else questioning the wisdom of granting less and less for each additional child: please go read up on basically every child welfare policy in use in the western world.

Please just accept that the costs per child goes down as you get more children. Just get over it. Or at the very least, start a new thread about it (that I don't have to read).

 

[CapnZapp]

This has if anything a negative impact on hyperconsumption.

You say that as if it were a bad thing

 

[CapnZapp]

But the Greek will not suddenly all want to move to a different country, so it's a purely theoretically thing. People don't uproot that easily. You need basically a shooting war in your country to see mass movement like that.
And if it were to happen, there would suddenly be a big Greek Community in Finland that needs all kinds of goods and services provided to them, and will pay taxes and what not. It will create new jobs, basically.
And any type of already existing welfare system has to deal with the same principle.


I don't know the exact details, but I suspect that you must have registered your primary residency in the country to get access to its entire welfare system. In some (if not all) countries this requires you to have a home (rental, owned, shared) and to be in the country a certain number of days.

There's another aspect to consider as well.

Not only do poor people (that are still within the EU, and thus are allowed to move wherever they want) find Finland attractive (including the so-called "migrants" from Romania and Bulgaria, significantly the oppressed romani minorities)...

...but you also need to take into account wealthy Finns taking the money... to live off it on a paradise beach in a low-cost country! 800 dollares might not get you very far in the US (or Finland), but it sure as hell gets you all the way at the beach in, say, Indonesia, India or Thailand.

Just to pick three wonderfully countries I personally know are warm and friendly and most importantly: when you can live on 10 bucks a day, €800 will allow you to idle away your life in relative luxury - as long as you only need booze, food, and the friendship of locals; no imported goods like cars and computers

 

[Maxperson]

To maxperson and everyone else questioning the wisdom of granting less and less for each additional child: please go read up on basically every child welfare policy in use in the western world.

Please just accept that the costs per child goes down as you get more children. Just get over it. Or at the very least, start a new thread about it (that I don't have to read).

As long as you accept that those welfare policies don't work. Those kids don't get anywhere close what they need and eat like crap, wear crap, and are generally very unhealthy.

 

[CapnZapp]

As long as you accept that those welfare policies don't work. Those kids don't get anywhere close what they need and eat like crap, wear crap, and are generally very unhealthy.

Please start a new thread.You're derailing the subject.

Instead, maxperson, what are your opinions on Finland's basic income proposal?

 

[Maxperson]

Please start a new thread.You're derailing the subject.

Instead, maxperson, what are your opinions on Finland's basic income proposal?

I think it should apply to children as well. Give the family of four $800 per person.

 

[CapnZapp]

I think it should apply to children as well. Give the family of four $800 per person.

Thank you for sharing.

At least for the initial experiment, that won't happen (I believe it's limited to people between the ages of 17 and 63)

Do you have opinions on any other part of basic income, not related to the minors issue?

 

[Maxperson]

Thank you for sharing.

At least for the initial experiment, that won't happen (I believe it's limited to people between the ages of 17 and 63)

Do you have opinions on any other part of basic income, not related to the minors issue?

Sure. Whenever you just hand out free money with no strings like that, it provides incentive for people to be lazy and not work.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sure. Whenever you just hand out free money with no strings like that, it provides incentive for people to be lazy and not work.

Interestingly enough, one of the main motives for basic income, is to increase the drive to work.

Based on how the current wefare system of some western european states disincentivizes you to find work, since you gain so little over remaining in the welfare system.

(That is, if you find an income, you no longer get welfare)

What do you think about the other suggested benefits of basic income? Such as

- "reduces (if not eliminates) government bureaucracy regarding welfare systems such as unemployment, sickness, maternity, pensions etc"

- "reduces (if not eliminates) feelings of hopelessness, not being worth anything and humiliation when you no longer are viewed as a burden, when you're treated as an equal, and when nobody interferes in your personal life"

- "reduces (if not eliminates) the sector of jobs that can be argued is the least productive of all: those involved in determining other humans' worth, i.e. their eligibility for the various current welfare systems (often arbitrarily and invasively).

- "solves the question of what to do with the shrinking number of workers required by the ever-more automated society" which is arguably reason #1, #2 and #3 combined

- "allows cultural sectors to exist without government sanction; artists no longer need to (but still can) cater to the commercial market without worry of not getting food on their table"

(I'm sure more arguments pro and con have been discussed, consider this list non-comprehensive)

Regards,

 

[Maxperson]

Interestingly enough, one of the main motives for basic income, is to increase the drive to work.

Based on how the current wefare system of some western european states disincentivizes you to find work, since you gain so little over remaining in the welfare system.

(That is, if you find an income, you no longer get welfare)

I understand that, and allowing it to stack with a job will work for some and get them to improve themselves. Many people are just plain lazy, though, and no amount of being allowed to work is going to get them to get a job when they have free money rolling in.

What do you think about the other suggested benefits of basic income? Such as

- "reduces (if not eliminates) government bureaucracy regarding welfare systems such as unemployment, sickness, maternity, pensions etc"

So it puts more working people on the free $870 euros as they lose their government positions. Ultimately, it will probably save expenses in those areas, but it remains to be seen if that savings will overcome the increase in the numbers of people being given the free cash.

- "reduces (if not eliminates) feelings of hopelessness, not being worth anything and humiliation when you no longer are viewed as a burden, when you're treated as an equal, and when nobody interferes in your personal life"

I don't see it. Being given free money the way they are planning would make me a burden. How am I suddenly worth more just because more people are now burdens on the government? It's a nice theory.

- "reduces (if not eliminates) the sector of jobs that can be argued is the least productive of all: those involved in determining other humans' worth, i.e. their eligibility for the various current welfare systems (often arbitrarily and invasively).

Costing jobs and putting people on the universal welfare program who weren't on it before.

- "solves the question of what to do with the shrinking number of workers required by the ever-more automated society" which is arguably reason #1, #2 and #3 combined

Solving the question would be re-training them to be able to do new jobs. Making them burdens on society is not solving the problem, even if you make everyone a burden.

- "allows cultural sectors to exist without government sanction; artists no longer need to (but still can) cater to the commercial market without worry of not getting food on their table"

Or they could have gotten a job and done their art in their free time until they made enough money to go solo. Free handouts so people can do art is not something a government should be doing. If a private foundation wants to fund artists, that's great. It's not the responsibility of a government to give handouts so people can refuse to work while they paint or what have you.