Firearms: Yes or No

[Sabaron]

Guns! Yes, I like them. I use Ken Hood's firearms rules, which gives me weapons very similar to those of Monte Cook, with the following changes

Pistol: Like Dragon Pistol, but d10+2 damage and penetrates 4 points of armor . Size M

Pocket pistol: Like Pistol, but 30' range and d8 damage. Size S

Musket: Like Dragon Rifle, but d12+4 damage and penetrates 6 points of armor

Carbine (Horse Musket): Like Musket, but d12+2 damage and 100' range. Can be used on horseback.

Also, they're much cheaper.

My players use them instead of bows or crossbows for range at low levels (mostly the wizards; no one else bothers with range weapons). Mostly they change the world by making 1st level NPC warriors a lot tougher, meaning that the adventures the players go on are much less of the "slay big monster" variety and more political. Large groups of soldiers with rifles just flat out destroy most monsters without much trouble.

 

[Darklone]

Because the number of spellcasters is far smaller than the number of people that could use firearms? Example: There are far more infantry than fighter pilots in any army. You need the ground pounders to take that territory. I figure the ratio of pilots to infantry is roughly the same as spellcasters to infantry in a fantasy campaign. PC's tend to have a lot of spells handy, most commoners don't. I'm sure that commoners would love firearms...

That's right. But you still need a western shooter with Improved Initiative to get the drop on a mage who'd simply had to snap his finger to blow your ammunition up. He doesn't have to fireball you, a little spark is enough.

And that's something I'm missing in all these firearm rules. Severe fumble rules and vulnerability to magic.

If I would use firearms, the rules should reflect the following:
- Awfully hard to hit.
- Very low range. Prolly a range increment of 5 or 10 ft.
- Reloading takes several rounds.
- Ammo explosion charts, fumble charts and rules how wizards can use a cantrip to light your powder.
- Not too high damage nor high crit multipliers. And there we are, we have a weapon that no PC would touch

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

A tentative yes... Depending on how it's handled.

I rather like the look and idea of gunpowder weapons in DnD games. But IMO, many systems overstimate the power of firearms. Given that suspension of disbelief has made being hit with a greatsword do '2D6' damage with a '19-20 critical' - people see that as reasonable. I don't see why a primitive gun should be more lethal than that?

I also think that a skilled bowman should be more lethal at ranged combat than conscripts with fairly simple gunpowder weapons... The Last Samurai had that about right for me. Right down to the impact a machinegun should have!

Do many people use enchanted firarms? I figure there's plenty of room for cool enchantments: Self/faster reloading, pouches that stop ammo exploding (bag of holding?) and similar...


One mechanic I'm considering, for a 'swashbuckly' game, is to have levels of proficiency work differently for firearms. Use the usual simple > martial > exotic, but the weapons and chances to hit are the same at each level, but the reload times are reduced. Figure it models things in a way I like...

I'm thinking of having exotic be a kind of fantasy John Woo - simply because I think it's fun. So, I'm going to steal and combine the RuneLock pistols idea - just to make sure no-one confuses them with 'realistic' guns.

Ideally they'd come out as a good alternative to bows but not overpoweringly so.

 

[Hand of Evil]

As for who made them, Gnomes...

 

[Nifft]

So, what is the difference between the personal power I spend to take ranks in Craft (firearm)? Or, how is the action in the firearm different than that of my creating a fire? Primitive firearms are also not automation -- they are chemical in nature (or better, in D&D, alchemical).

In D&D world, the active person's philosophy / training / understanding directly affect what their actions actually mean.

The only way to repeat an Arcane experiment is to take enough levels in Wizard.

The only way to repeat a Divine experiment -- well, there's no way. Every time you're asking a higher being to do something for you.

Alchemy is the "state of the art" in terms of chemistry -- it's the best that people have ever done. Note how simple the alchemical items are to explain:
- "What does this jar do?"
- "When you throw it, it burns."

So, perhaps I could be convinced to allow a "Tinkerer" class which was able to make some chemistry work for themselves only. Just like magic, you'd need to have training to get the reaction(s) to occur.

(In response: automation is based on leveraging someone else's understanding. I do not allow even the precursors. If chemistry works, then automatic revolvers work, and those are more clearly automation.)

Hope that helps, -- N

 

[Darklone]

As for who made them, Gnomes...

That was the reason given in some campaign setting on the net why noone uses firearms

 

[Raven Crowking]

So, perhaps I could be convinced to allow a "Tinkerer" class which was able to make some chemistry work for themselves only. Just like magic, you'd need to have training to get the reaction(s) to occur.

(In response: automation is based on leveraging someone else's understanding. I do not allow even the precursors. If chemistry works, then automatic revolvers work, and those are more clearly automation.)

Hope that helps, -- N

Actually, that sounds like a pretty cool worldview to play in. If I understand you right, the XP cost of making magic items allows them to be "anyone can use" items? Meanwhile, Tinky McTinker can make a somewhat useful, and pretty expensive toy for himself?

Raven

 

[scranford]

I have done a conversion of the Warhammer rules to both d20, and the currently used Harp system, and in both cases made a feat / Talent to allow the use of firearms. Then things like rapid reload, and quick draw apply normally. The one thing I have added which increases their utility, is since they are rare weapons, I require a Will Save vs. Fear when NPC's or Creatures encounter a discharged firearm. This is modified by previous experience with firearms, or cultural level... "The Goblins broke and ran when suddenly the Mysterious stranger in the Black hat Created a cloud of Black smoke and Thunder from the strange Staff he carried. Only Grimlby didn't move cause he had a large hole where his chest used to be. "

 

[Nifft]

Actually, that sounds like a pretty cool worldview to play in. If I understand you right, the XP cost of making magic items allows them to be "anyone can use" items? Meanwhile, Tinky McTinker can make a somewhat useful, and pretty expensive toy for himself?

It's more a justification for the Core D&D World (tm) than it is a sparkling new setting concept.

The implications are:
- no economies of scale
- magic is sentient
- no automation w/o magic (this includes traps)
- personal power is roughly equal to organizational power (chaos / law balanced)
- chemical, atomic & sub-atomic reactions are not consistant outside of a living being's "morphogenic field"
- don't piss off the fey

XP cost for magic items are as stated in the core rules -- "anyone can use" items like Wonders and Potions cost more than "experience required" items like Wands and Scrolls. This is justified by requiring less sentience within the item itself.

-- N

 

[Ibram]

The firearms in my world follow the following rules.

all firearms are exotic weapons covered under the feat EWP blackpowder weapons. Fighters can surrender Armor Proficiency (heavy) to get this feat for free at 1st level, as can Rangers, surrendering Armor Proficiency (medium) gives the feat Firearms Drill (explained below). Since I use the Armor as damage reduction rules my firearms all deal bonus damage.

Pistol: Damage 1d10+1 crit x3 range 10ft cost 150sp Reload time 5 rnds
(note: pistols can be fired in melee without provoking an AoO)
Carbine: Damage 1d10+2 crit x3 range 25ft cost 200sp Reload time 7 rnds
Musket: Damage 1d12+4 crit x3 range 60ft cost 300sp Reload time 10 rnds

new feat:
Firearms Drill [Fighter, General]
Prereq: BaB +2, EWP(black powder weapons)
Benefit: reload time for black powder weapons is 1 less
special: this feat can be taken up to 3 times, its effects stack.