D&D (2024) Fireball is a C Tier Spell

[Staffan]

I'm not sure who Cohen the Barbarian is. Does he work at H&R Block? :-D

Cohen the Barbarian is a character from the Discworld novels. I believe he shows up in The Light Fantastic, Interesting Times, and The Last Hero, and his daughter Conina is a major character in Sourcery.

Cohen is your typical pulp barbarian along the lines of Conan (or at least the popular idea of Conan). He is also somewhere north of 80 years old, with typical problems that come with old age. When asked what is best in life, his reply is "Hot water, good dentishtry, and shoft lavatory paper." But the man has been actively adventuring for a long, long time, and he's very, very, very good at what he does.

Here's a picture of Cohen meeting the main gods of the Disc:

 

[mellored]

It's less important with 5 attacks vs 6 attacks, but is more meaningful when it's 2 attacks vs 3 attacks using the bonus action to avoid those OA's.

More like 2 vs 2.5.
Again, not saying it's bad, but I would still rather have grappler in most parties.

The extra attack can also be significant depending on the availability of a magic weapon and it's properties.

Just FYI, there are magical hand wraps for unarmed attacks. Which can apply to all attacks, including flurry.

 

[Zardnaar]

Damage spells in general are typically not as effective as action denial because of the high hit points monsters have. IME

That doesn't mean fireball or other damage spells don't have their uses. Calling fireball C-tier or average isn't the same as calling it a bad spell. It's often not the best spell to use, which is different from bad.

Fireball is still a good spell to carry for those scenarios even if it's not typically going to be the best option the rest of the time because there are still going to be situations where it is a good choice often enough.



The weapon mastery feat is good for wanting to use that bonus action for anything other than flurry of blows, such as patient defense, step of the wind, or drinking a potion.

It's less important with 5 attacks vs 6 attacks, but is more meaningful when it's 2 attacks vs 3 attacks using the bonus action to avoid those OA's.

The extra attack can also be significant depending on the availability of a magic weapon and it's properties.



I'm not sure who Cohen the Barbarian is. Does he work at H&R Block? :-D

I would probably still pick it. However on some narrow builds I might skip it. Generally if I have a shortage of spells known.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone like Cohen the Barbarian. Has he ever had any formal schooling in magic stuff? Heck no! But he's been adventuring for 60-70 years, so he's seen stuff. He probably has a better grasp on how magic works than someone fresh out of the Unseen University.

I strongly doubt that. He has been adventuring for 60-70 years, but most of that time was likely spent traveling and not fighting wizards. He'd have a fair amount of outsider knowledge like how best to avoid fireballs and such, but that amounts to hit points. He's not going to have the same kind of in depth knowledge of how magic works than someone who has spent years studying, reading and practicing magic. That graduate would still have significantly more time with magic than even Cohen, and be learning things you don't get by observation.

 

[Maxperson]

Cohen the Barbarian is a character from the Discworld novels. I believe he shows up in The Light Fantastic, Interesting Times, and The Last Hero, and his daughter Conina is a major character in Sourcery.

Cohen is your typical pulp barbarian along the lines of Conan (or at least the popular idea of Conan). He is also somewhere north of 80 years old, with typical problems that come with old age. When asked what is best in life, his reply is "Hot water, good dentishtry, and shoft lavatory paper." But the man has been actively adventuring for a long, long time, and he's very, very, very good at what he does.

Here's a picture of Cohen meeting the main gods of the Disc:
View attachment 400964

You left out The Silver Horde!! The best Cohen(and other old barbarian) novel.

 

[Zardnaar]

Fought a 2024 wight today. Old one had 45 hp. This one had 85.

That's only CR 4 iirc.

Candlekeep Mysteries level 3 raven adventure. Two levels before they even get the spell.

 

[Staffan]

You left out The Silver Horde!! The best Cohen(and other old barbarian) novel.

There is no Silver Horde novel. The Silver Horde shows up in Interesting Times and The Last Hero.

 

[Staffan]

I strongly doubt that. He has been adventuring for 60-70 years, but most of that time was likely spent traveling and not fighting wizards. He'd have a fair amount of outsider knowledge like how best to avoid fireballs and such, but that amounts to hit points. He's not going to have the same kind of in depth knowledge of how magic works than someone who has spent years studying, reading and practicing magic. That graduate would still have significantly more time with magic than even Cohen, and be learning things you don't get by observation.

He's spent some of the time fighting wizards, he's spent some fighting alongside wizards, he's encountered a buttload of weird magical phenomena, and so on. Would he do any good at an exam at the Unseen University? Probably not, because he probably doesn't know the right terms and so on. But he'd know the habits of many magical creatures, and he could recognize that this magic sigil looks a lot like the one that turned Abba Stronginthearm into a frog that one time back in the year of the Peacock. All that stuff translates, or should translate, into a good bonus to Arcana checks.

 

[S'mon]

I find Fireball is best Vs a similar sized party of peer or near peer opponents. Yes it is weak Vs a single target, and very weak foes shouldn't need a level 3 spell. But I am playing a Keep in the Borderlands campaign where our two casters just hit 5th and I expect it will make a huge difference.

 

[wizard71]

Fireball is S tier. Why? It’s iconic. Demonstrating the PC’s first real jump in power. Everyone knows it and a distinct minority hate it. If it were any other spell I probably would not have posted a reply but fireball will always be my choice unless I am I the Nine Hells. Rock on fireball!