Fireball/Lightning Bolt Abuse?

[Tasantherus]

My resident sorcerer is getting a little fireball happy. When the group is in melee combat, he'll light off a fire ball just so the edge of it enters the bad guys hex and not the pc's. Is this legal? Can you use a fireball so accurately as to target specific creatures by choosing where the center of the blast area will be and deduce the edge of the fireball from there? Same for lightning bolt.. can you arc it through the hex of a group in melee combat and only hit the bad guy?

 

[Caliban]

Nothing in the core rules stop you from doing this, although some DM's choose to have the caster make a Spellcraft check to accurately place the spell. (Usually DC 10 + spell level or DC 15 + spell level.)

 

[Crothian]

It's legal. Want to have some fun? Have an opposing mage cast an illusion that only the Sorcerer can see. The illusions shifts everyone a certain direction like 10 feet. Granted, you'll need to create a spell that does this, I don't know of any illusions that are made to only target one person.

 

[hong]

Nothing in the core rules stop you from doing this, although some DM's choose to have the caster make a Spellcraft check to accurately place the spell. (Usually DC 10 + spell level or DC 15 + spell level.)

Agree with Caliban. The fact that you don't usually have to explicitly target your spell is just a matter of convenience for spellcasting characters. If someone starts exploiting or abusing this loophole, feel free to close it down.

 

[kreynolds]

Agree with Caliban. The fact that you don't usually have to explicitly target your spell is just a matter of convenience for spellcasting characters. If someone starts exploiting or abusing this loophole, feel free to close it down.

I'd just like to point out that the Fireball spell specifically states that you specify the distance and height you want the bead to detonate. It's more like a torpedo or guided missile than throwing a grenade. Thus, you can target the fireball to strike exactly where you want it, though you must have line of sight or the bead may strike an interposing barrier and detonate early. Just my 2cp.

 

[hong]

I'd just like to point out that the Fireball spell specifically states that you specify the distance and height you want the bead to detonate. It's more like a torpedo or guided missile than throwing a grenade. Thus, you can target the fireball to strike exactly where you want it, though you must have line of sight or the bead may strike an interposing barrier and detonate early. Just my 2cp.

And the spell description also states that "if you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier". There is an element of judgement involved in deciding where the bead goes -- it isn't like magic missile, which is unerring in its aim.

Judgement, in turn, implies the possibility of human error. You may _want_ to aim the fireball just so that it blasts all the orcs but not your friends, however, by the time you've finished casting the spell, everyone's moved _just that little bit_ and it means you don't quite get the result you wanted. In the end, what it means is that a ranged touch attack or Spellcraft check is quite reasonable in tight situations.

At least we're not back in 2E days, where the fireball filled up a set volume, no matter what. Now that was icky....

 

[Crothian]

I'd just like to point out that the Fireball spell specifically states that you specify the distance and height you want the bead to detonate. It's more like a torpedo or guided missile than throwing a grenade. Thus, you can target the fireball to strike exactly where you want it, though you must have line of sight or the bead may strike an interposing barrier and detonate early. Just my 2cp.

Have you ever stood in a field or other clear area have a friend run a small distance away and try to acurately determine how far away he is? It's not easy. Same with height. You don't have a laser distancer here, nor is it point and shoot. I guess you could have it go to your max range at a certain height and hope that it hits your target first, thus causing it to explode.......

 

[Astlin]

And the spell description also states that "if you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier". There is an element of judgement involved in deciding where the bead goes -- it isn't like magic missile, which is unerring in its aim.

Judgement, in turn, implies the possibility of human error. You may _want_ to aim the fireball just so that it blasts all the orcs but not your friends, however, by the time you've finished casting the spell, everyone's moved _just that little bit_ and it means you don't quite get the result you wanted. In the end, what it means is that a ranged touch attack or Spellcraft check is quite reasonable in tight situations.

No. You select the AoE target (space) just as you would a MMs target (person). What you do not have complete control over is how it gets there. Thus the roll to hit in the instance quoted.

At least we're not back in 2E days, where the fireball filled up a set volume, no matter what. Now that was icky....

That was fun though! What I really miss are the bouncy lightning bolts. LB pool was one of my favorite pastimes.

Astlin

 

[kreynolds]

No. You select the AoE target (space) just as you would a MMs target (person). What you do not have complete control over is how it gets there. Thus the roll to hit in the instance quoted.

There ya' go. Now were on the same wavelength.

 

[Petrosian]

Well... lets carry this further...

GENERAL PRINCIPLE: Some GMs do not like their players using the grid too precisely gauge distances.

Now perhaps the GMs are honest enough to say "we just want to stick it to the mages" but most will rush back to "oh no it should apply to everyone".

So for those who are honest and just want the mage to have to roll to see if he judges the distances by the grid correctly, you do not need to read further. You and your bias can rest warm at night.

For those who want to pretend to appear impartial and thus are stuck with "gauging distance accurately is tough" for EVERYONE then start your dice warming up.

Fighter player says "cool, the enemy is 40' away. i charge him and strike as he is just in reach."

GM responds: "Roll a die, lets see if you got that right, otherwise you might come up 5' short. Oh man, bad roll. you mis judged the distance between you and the bad guy. You stop 5' short. Ok that ends your round with a double move. Now its his turn. lets see a 5' step and he gets to nail you with a FULL ATTACK!! yeah baby oh man both claws and now a rend."

Rogue player says "Oh cripes, while he is picking up his innards i will move to just inside my sneak attack range and shoot. Since I am invisible my arrow will be a sneak shot doing an additional 6d6. that ought to nail the troll since he is already somewhat hurt."

GM again "Roll to see if you judge it right. Oh man! What lousy dice. Ok you are 5' outside of the range for the sneak bonus. you end up just doing your usual 1d6+2. now the troll notices you and looks really ticked off."

WHATS THE MORAL?

pretty much for combat after combat and decision after decision the GRID and its UNFAILING measurements fit into every character's, PC and NPC alike, decision making. in rule after rule after rule a 5' error is the difference between life and death.

So, unless you wanna say " i just want to hose the spellcasters" dont go all out of shape when they, like the fighter who decides his move or the rogue who plans his sneakattack or the monk who judges his spring attack exit, use the grid and its measurements to cast their friggin' spells.

If i were in a game where the Gm made me make a spellcraft check to CHOOSE my spells placement routinely, i would also be insisting that EVERY OTHER CHARACTER have to make a similar roll to guess whether its a double move or double move +5' to the bad guy or whether they stop 30' or 35' for their arrow etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Maybe after one run of having to make a "gauge distance roll" before every action of every character in every round... we could get back to doing what we were their to do... play the game... as opposed to this nonsense.