D&D (2024) Fireball/Lightning Bolt vs Chromatic Orb?

[Kinematics]

So, this is a sketchy interpretation of a rules combo, and I could easily see it getting rejected, but it feels like it could maybe work.

When Chromatic Orb bounces to a new target, you make a new attack roll against a target within 30' of the last. Could you apply the Spell Sniper feat's range extension feature to that new range? You have cast a spell, and you have to make an attack roll, and the existing range is more than 10' for each new attack. That seems to meet the requirements for the feature.

I don't know if there is any other spell that would meet those requirements, so this is a rather unique combo, if it was allowed. With +60' from the feat, that would be 150' for the first target, and each new target has to be within 90' of the last. Crazy pinball bouncing.

As such, even if it's iffy, Spell Sniper is an uncommon enough choice that I would likely still allow it, just for the pinball-trick-shot effect. It feels like something someone who took the Spell Sniper feat would want to be able to do, and should be able to do.

 

[Zardnaar]

Probably not the 30 bounce effect isn't the spells range.

Interesting thought though. Idk to be honest.

 

[^Dagon^]

Chromatic Orb combos well with hex, fireball doesn't. Fireball is not fun for me, can't do anything spectacular anymore.

 

[Zardnaar]

Chromatic Orb combos well with hex, fireball doesn't. Fireball is not fun for me, can't do anything spectacular anymore.

Yeah chromatic orb still can do incredible things. At least under player control not DMing feeding fire ball bait type encounters.

 

[Kinematics]

From the other thread on the Elemental Adept feat, here's some additional info:

Probabilities:

Level Cast	Dice	Max Bounce	Bounce %	Adept Bounce %
1	3	1	34.38%	41.41%
2	4	2	58.98%	67.77%
3	5	3	79.49%	86.82%
4	6	4	92.31%	96.43%
5	7	5	98.08%	99.52%
6	8	6	99.76%	100.00%

And expected number of targets hit, excluding accuracy:

Level Cast	Base Targets	Adept Targets	Gain
1	1.34	1.41	5%
2	1.94	2.14	10%
3	2.93	3.28	12%
4	4.29	4.66	9%
5	5.72	5.93	4%
6	6.95	7.00	1%

Anyway, up til spell level 4, it looks like Elemental Adept is worth about +10% damage for Chromatic Orb just by virtue of hitting that many more targets, on average. The actual damage increase from changing 1s to 2s is just +2.8%.


Aside: My calculations for using Empowered Spell on Chromatic Orb are not reliable, since the Sage Advice update which indicated that a single metamagic cannot be used twice on the same spell (even if there are multiple rolls involved), but that Empowered Spell could have its rerolls spread out among all of the spell's rolls.

For example, Scorching Ray could have 1 die rerolled from each beam. So for Chromatic Orb, you could have the handful of rerolls spread out among all the targets hit, just using the necessary dice to get a bounce. But you don't get a full set of rerolls usable on each target.

I'm not sure how I'd try to apply that, but I'll probably use a slight variant on what I had, with an assumption of 1 rerolled die per target to kind of average things out.

 

[Kinematics]

Here's a table examining the impact of Empowered Spell on Chromatic Orb, after accounting for the Sage Advice answer that said that you basically get a single pool of dice rerolls for the entire spell, and can't double dip just because you get additional attack/damage rolls.

Level Cast	Dice	Max Bounces	Bounce %	Adept %	Emp Dice	Emp Bounce %	Emp Adept %
1	3	1	34.38%	41.41%	2	56.04%	62.15%
2	4	2	58.98%	67.77%	2	79.81%	84.70%
3	5	3	79.49%	86.82%	2	92.99%	95.65%
4	6	4	92.31%	96.43%	1	97.12%	98.66%
5	7	5	98.08%	99.52%	1	99.52%	99.88%
6	8	6	99.76%	100.00%	1	99.97%	100.00%

The Bounce % and Adept (Bounce) % are the odds of getting a bounce based on the initial damage roll, without and with the Elemental Adept feat. The Emp Dice column are the number of dice rerolled per target, if there was no natural bounce. Emp Bounce and Emp Adept are the odds of a bounce after factoring in rerolls.

The choice of the number of dice rerolled with Empowered Spell was based on:

1. How many dice you can reroll total, based on expected Charisma at various spell levels.
2. How many bounces are possible for the entire spell. You only get one pool of reroll dice for the entire spell, so spread them out judiciously.
3. How likely you are to need to reroll on a given target. With more damage dice, the need to reroll goes down dramatically.
4. How effective a given number of dice rerolls is for any given damage pool.

For example, for the level 1 version with 3 damage dice, rerolling 2 dice is just as effective as rerolling all 3, so there's no need to use all 3 rerolls at first. Plus, if you're allowed to reroll the third die after finding out the results of the first two, that's even better than rolling all three at once.

Overall, 2 dice used for rerolls was the simplest/best option for lower spell levels, while 1 die per bounce was sufficient for higher spell levels.

For spell levels 1-3, Empowered Spell is decently beneficial, giving you around a 15% boost to damage just from better bounces. At spell levels 4 and above, Empowered Spell is much less useful for bounces.

If you're not using Empowered Spell, then Elemental Adept provides a minor boost for lower spell levels. If you are using Empowered Spell, or casting at higher spell levels, Elemental Adept is a little harder to justify just from bounce improvements.

 

[Zardnaar]

Here's a table examining the impact of Empowered Spell on Chromatic Orb, after accounting for the Sage Advice answer that said that you basically get a single pool of dice rerolls for the entire spell, and can't double dip just because you get additional attack/damage rolls.

Level Cast	Dice	Max Bounces	Bounce %	Adept %	Emp Dice	Emp Bounce %	Emp Adept %
1	3	1	34.38%	41.41%	2	56.04%	62.15%
2	4	2	58.98%	67.77%	2	79.81%	84.70%
3	5	3	79.49%	86.82%	2	92.99%	95.65%
4	6	4	92.31%	96.43%	1	97.12%	98.66%
5	7	5	98.08%	99.52%	1	99.52%	99.88%
6	8	6	99.76%	100.00%	1	99.97%	100.00%

The Bounce % and Adept (Bounce) % are the odds of getting a bounce based on the initial damage roll, without and with the Elemental Adept feat. The Emp Dice column are the number of dice rerolled per target, if there was no natural bounce. Emp Bounce and Emp Adept are the odds of a bounce after factoring in rerolls.

The choice of the number of dice rerolled with Empowered Spell was based on:

1. How many dice you can reroll total, based on expected Charisma at various spell levels.
2. How many bounces are possible for the entire spell. You only get one pool of reroll dice for the entire spell, so spread them out judiciously.
3. How likely you are to need to reroll on a given target. With more damage dice, the need to reroll goes down dramatically.
4. How effective a given number of dice rerolls is for any given damage pool.

For example, for the level 1 version with 3 damage dice, rerolling 2 dice is just as effective as rerolling all 3, so there's no need to use all 3 rerolls at first. Plus, if you're allowed to reroll the third die after finding out the results of the first two, that's even better than rolling all three at once.

Overall, 2 dice used for rerolls was the simplest/best option for lower spell levels, while 1 die per bounce was sufficient for higher spell levels.

For spell levels 1-3, Empowered Spell is decently beneficial, giving you around a 15% boost to damage just from better bounces. At spell levels 4 and above, Empowered Spell is much less useful for bounces.

If you're not using Empowered Spell, then Elemental Adept provides a minor boost for lower spell levels. If you are using Empowered Spell, or casting at higher spell levels, Elemental Adept is a little harder to justify just from bounce improvements.

Going above and beyond.
Here's a table examining the impact of Empowered Spell on Chromatic Orb, after accounting for the Sage Advice answer that said that you basically get a single pool of dice rerolls for the entire spell, and can't double dip just because you get additional attack/damage rolls.

Level Cast	Dice	Max Bounces	Bounce %	Adept %	Emp Dice	Emp Bounce %	Emp Adept %
1	3	1	34.38%	41.41%	2	56.04%	62.15%
2	4	2	58.98%	67.77%	2	79.81%	84.70%
3	5	3	79.49%	86.82%	2	92.99%	95.65%
4	6	4	92.31%	96.43%	1	97.12%	98.66%
5	7	5	98.08%	99.52%	1	99.52%	99.88%
6	8	6	99.76%	100.00%	1	99.97%	100.00%

The Bounce % and Adept (Bounce) % are the odds of getting a bounce based on the initial damage roll, without and with the Elemental Adept feat. The Emp Dice column are the number of dice rerolled per target, if there was no natural bounce. Emp Bounce and Emp Adept are the odds of a bounce after factoring in rerolls.

The choice of the number of dice rerolled with Empowered Spell was based on:

1. How many dice you can reroll total, based on expected Charisma at various spell levels.
2. How many bounces are possible for the entire spell. You only get one pool of reroll dice for the entire spell, so spread them out judiciously.
3. How likely you are to need to reroll on a given target. With more damage dice, the need to reroll goes down dramatically.
4. How effective a given number of dice rerolls is for any given damage pool.

For example, for the level 1 version with 3 damage dice, rerolling 2 dice is just as effective as rerolling all 3, so there's no need to use all 3 rerolls at first. Plus, if you're allowed to reroll the third die after finding out the results of the first two, that's even better than rolling all three at once.

Overall, 2 dice used for rerolls was the simplest/best option for lower spell levels, while 1 die per bounce was sufficient for higher spell levels.

For spell levels 1-3, Empowered Spell is decently beneficial, giving you around a 15% boost to damage just from better bounces. At spell levels 4 and above, Empowered Spell is much less useful for bounces.

If you're not using Empowered Spell, then Elemental Adept provides a minor boost for lower spell levels. If you are using Empowered Spell, or casting at higher spell levels, Elemental Adept is a little harder to justify just from bounce improvements.

 

[Zardnaar]

Here's a table examining the impact of Empowered Spell on Chromatic Orb, after accounting for the Sage Advice answer that said that you basically get a single pool of dice rerolls for the entire spell, and can't double dip just because you get additional attack/damage rolls.

Level Cast	Dice	Max Bounces	Bounce %	Adept %	Emp Dice	Emp Bounce %	Emp Adept %
1	3	1	34.38%	41.41%	2	56.04%	62.15%
2	4	2	58.98%	67.77%	2	79.81%	84.70%
3	5	3	79.49%	86.82%	2	92.99%	95.65%
4	6	4	92.31%	96.43%	1	97.12%	98.66%
5	7	5	98.08%	99.52%	1	99.52%	99.88%
6	8	6	99.76%	100.00%	1	99.97%	100.00%

The Bounce % and Adept (Bounce) % are the odds of getting a bounce based on the initial damage roll, without and with the Elemental Adept feat. The Emp Dice column are the number of dice rerolled per target, if there was no natural bounce. Emp Bounce and Emp Adept are the odds of a bounce after factoring in rerolls.

The choice of the number of dice rerolled with Empowered Spell was based on:

1. How many dice you can reroll total, based on expected Charisma at various spell levels.
2. How many bounces are possible for the entire spell. You only get one pool of reroll dice for the entire spell, so spread them out judiciously.
3. How likely you are to need to reroll on a given target. With more damage dice, the need to reroll goes down dramatically.
4. How effective a given number of dice rerolls is for any given damage pool.

For example, for the level 1 version with 3 damage dice, rerolling 2 dice is just as effective as rerolling all 3, so there's no need to use all 3 rerolls at first. Plus, if you're allowed to reroll the third die after finding out the results of the first two, that's even better than rolling all three at once.

Overall, 2 dice used for rerolls was the simplest/best option for lower spell levels, while 1 die per bounce was sufficient for higher spell levels.

For spell levels 1-3, Empowered Spell is decently beneficial, giving you around a 15% boost to damage just from better bounces. At spell levels 4 and above, Empowered Spell is much less useful for bounces.

If you're not using Empowered Spell, then Elemental Adept provides a minor boost for lower spell levels. If you are using Empowered Spell, or casting at higher spell levels, Elemental Adept is a little harder to justify just from bounce improvements.

Going above and beyond cheers.