Firefly Alignments Debate

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Okay, I'm really not a fan of D&D alignment. Sometimes the labels can actually be convenient, and at least they make for good arguments.

So what alignments do the crew of Serenity possess? My opinions are as follows:

Malcolm: Lawful Neutral
Inara: Neutral Good
Zoe: True Neutral
Wash: True Neutral
Simon: Neutral Good
River: Chaotic Neutral
Jayne: Chaotic Neutral, secondary alignment Neutral Evil
Book: Lawful Good
Kaylee: Neutral Good

 

[Umbran]

The "secondary alignment" thing for Jayne seems a bit weak. The man does not suddenly become less concerned with personal freedom when he does bad things.

I don't think Jayne is CN, actually. To be really chaotic, one should be dedicated to increasing personal freedom for everyone. Jayne doesn't care enough about others to be dedicated thus. In addition, he's fairly predictable in most situations. He's just Neutral, with occasional evil and chaotic twinges.

Zoe may be neutral, but she borders upon lawfulness. She seems pretty dedicated to the chain of command and the power stucture on board the ship.

 

[Staffan]

I'd definitely peg Mal as Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies. He really dislikes authorities and big government, which is the defining trait of the Chaotic ethos. He keeps deals made, but that's just a survival trait when dealing with criminals (and the consequences of breaking deals is shown in War Stories).

I'd also probably peg Jayne as Chaotic Evil. He also doesn't care for authorities, he's only out for himself, and he has absolutely no regard for deals made (q.v. the scene in Out of Gas where he's introduced, and Ariel).

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

I'd definitely peg Mal as Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies. He really dislikes authorities and big government, which is the defining trait of the Chaotic ethos. He keeps deals made, but that's just a survival trait when dealing with criminals (and the consequences of breaking deals is shown in War Stories).

He was given a position of authority in the War, and takes his position as Captain very seriously. His stance on keeping deals seems more like an ethical precept than a practical one to my mind. Even when it would be in his best interests to break agreements, he doesn't do so - and when he felt he needed to default from a job, he made sure the money given was returned.

In short, I just don't see Chaotic as fitting the Captain. He seems to have a very potent code of ethics that he follows; it's just not a formal or explicit one.

I'd also probably peg Jayne as Chaotic Evil. He also doesn't care for authorities, he's only out for himself, and he has absolutely no regard for deals made (q.v. the scene in Out of Gas where he's introduced, and Ariel).

He's very consistent, though. Gotta give him that. He also won't betray the Captain, presumably because he respects Mal's dedication to his agreements. Being selfish isn't necessarily Chaotic Evil.

 

[Umbran]

He also won't betray the Captain, presumably because he respects Mal's dedication to his agreements. Being selfish isn't necessarily Chaotic Evil.

I don't think it's due to respect. I think it's due to teh fact that he will get no mercy. When Jayne tried to betray Simon and River, Mal came very close to tossing Jayne out the airlock. What do you think would happen if Jayne tried to betray Mal personally?

No, Jayne keeps his word to Mal through plain and simple risk analysis. If and when the money is really good enough, Jayne would turn. It just has to be a whole lot of money

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Malcolm let Jayne live when he saw that Jayne was ashamed.

Mal is tough, but fair. He is also occasionally compassionate, but he won't hesitate to strike down someone that deserves it. He's big on being just, but his idea of justice requires that he show consideration for the needs of others.

I'm also not sure whether Zoe is concerned about power structures in general, or if she's just personally loyal to Mal. Lots of people are personally loyal to Mal, after all. He inspires that in people.

 

[Harp]

Alright then, my take (cool discussion BTW):

Mal - Chaotic good: He may have been Lawful good during the war but he's really enjoying tweaking the established authority as a criminal mastermind now. Yes, he has a very powerful internal code, but I think the code has more to do with what's right (or good, in my opinion) than what's good for society as a whole.

Inara - Neutral good: No quibbles there.

Zoe - Lawful neutral (good tendencies): I think her affinity for organized structure goes beyond her loyalty to the Captain.

Wash - Don't care (sorry), but if I had to pick I'd say Chaotic good. He doesn't care much for the power structure on the ship, or anywhere really, but he seems a generally decent sort.

Jayne - Neutral evil: Though the alignment has an ugly connotation (you know, evil and all), it's always struck me as the ultimate "lookin' out for number one" alignment. He doesn't seem to give two hoots about authority or personal freedom as long as he gets his. And he seems more than willing to sell out his comrades when an opportunity arises (see "Train Job" and "Ariel").

The others I'm in general agreement on: LG for Book (though that might change if his backstory were ever to be revealed, and I'm dying for it to be revealed), NG for Kaylee and Simon, and for River, who knows?

 

[Henry]

A agree with Harp's assessment the most; a personal code to me does not have to imply lawful; after all, he has no problem with that code when the good or evil of a situation plays into it (when Malcolm first meets Simon and River, he's ready to give them to the Alliance in a heartbeat).

Jayne? Neutral Evil, or Neutral with Evil tendencies. There's a man who would sell his own mother if it bought a companion gun for Vera. I love him as a character; if I were to meet someone like that in real life, it'd be REALLY hard to be friends with them. Yeah, NE is a good descriptor, because he really is out for himself over all else.

The weird thing is how well he and Book get along in casual conversation. Book won't trust him any farther than his field of vision, but he gets along with him pretty well in shipboard life (lifting weights together, casual conversations at the dinner table, etc.)

 

[buzzard]

Granted I've only seen one DVDs worth(the first one), but I rather think Malcom is a good example of Nuetral. I believe that even in the limited sampling of the series that I've seen there's plenty of things that you can't count as good. Of course there are also plenty of things you wouldn't count as evil (though are close). He might have been lawful once, but his rejection of the Alliance makes it so that I can't see him as lawful. However he seems to be fairly regimented at times.

I suppose the personal code argument could be applied and make him chaotic nuetral, but I have that deep seated antipathy to the alignment from watching too many people play it wrong to ever inflict it on anyone.

buzzard

 

[Staffan]

He was given a position of authority in the War, and takes his position as Captain very seriously. His stance on keeping deals seems more like an ethical precept than a practical one to my mind. Even when it would be in his best interests to break agreements, he doesn't do so - and when he felt he needed to default from a job, he made sure the money given was returned.

In short, I just don't see Chaotic as fitting the Captain. He seems to have a very potent code of ethics that he follows; it's just not a formal or explicit one.

He probably was Lawful back during the war - or possibly not, given that the Independents fought for less central control. He probably wasn't Chaotic, though.

However, I don't think "personal code of ethics" means you're Lawful. Lawful means you support society's rights over those of the individual - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and all that. That's definitely the antithesis of Malcolm Reynolds.

He's very consistent, though. Gotta give him that. He also won't betray the Captain, presumably because he respects Mal's dedication to his agreements. Being selfish isn't necessarily Chaotic Evil.

No, but selling out your buddies when a better deal comes along is. See his backstory in Out of Gas:

Spoiler

Jayne is a part of a group sent to kill Mal and Zoë. Mal tells him that if he joins up with him instead, he'll get his own bunk and a fair share of the profits. Jayne instantly turns on his former pals.