"First Edition Feel"

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No, but if you want one, you have to decide at first level.

No, you don't.

If you're all, "I must optimize all my choices, and take levels in this particular PrC as early as possibile," then, yeah, you might need to start planning from 1st-level onwards.

But it sure as heck isn't required, by any stretch of the imagination.

Ferinstance, my character in the Eberron campaign I'm playing is a Ftr / Rog. We'd made it to 6th-level before Complete Adventurer came out. There's a PrC in CV that I might be interested in taking. Now, if I'd been superoptimizing my character, then I could probably have arranged my stats / skill points such that I could take it at 6th.

The PrC didn't even exist during the period my character was 1st-5th level, so I obviously couldn't plan his stats and skills out to meet it's prereqs.

And yet, darn it if I couldn't eventually take levels in the PrC anyway (within a couple levels) - which you'd have us erroneously believe is impossible.

 

[Henry]

AD&D1
Player: I disarm him.
DM: Can't, you aren't using a bastard sword.
Player: Huh? Okay, I grapple him.
DM: <groans> Oh, come on, I don't want to have to deal with those rules.
Player: Well what the heck can I do?
DM: Attack him.

Grognards everywhere may laugh at me, but when I was running a 1E AD&D game last January in the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, I resorted to 3E grapple rules when someone wanted to wrestle a hill giant -- hey, it got the job done...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Amen to that. I actually had to listen to a DM-player argument that went something like this:

DM: You see a group of orcs near the woodline.
Player: Have they seen us?
DM: Not that you can tell.
Player: How far away are they?
DM: Do you have any skill points in Range Estimation?
(Editorial Note: No, I'm not making this up.)
Player: What?
DM: Range Estimation. It's a new skill.
Player: No, I don't have any skill points in Range Estimation.
DM: Then you can't tell how far away the orcs are.
Player: Why not?
DM: Because you don't have any skill point in range estimation.
Player: So?

Wait a second. Now I'm confused. Are you bashing 3e or telling us that your DM is a failure at running the game?

 

[Psion]

Grognards everywhere may laugh at me, but when I was running a 1E AD&D game last January in the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, I resorted to 3E grapple rules when someone wanted to wrestle a hill giant -- hey, it got the job done...

Please tell me that by "got the job done" you meant "the giant pile-drived him."

 

[PJ-Mason]

D&D [current edition]
Player: I disarm him.
DM: OK, he takes an attack of opportunity. <rolls> He misses. Let's make opposed attack rolls.

Versus

AD&D1
Player: I disarm him.
DM: Can't, you aren't using a bastard sword.
Player: Huh? Okay, I grapple him.
DM: <groans> Oh, come on, I don't want to have to deal with those rules.
Player: Well what the heck can I do?
DM: Attack him.

LOL. Which proves what? I think you have me mistaken with people who prefer another edition of D&D. That ain't me. If i do play D&D again, it'll be 3.0. Though i might try 1.0 again, just because its been so long since i played. Heck, if i played D&D again, it would be Arcana Evolved. Its fairly much the same, but the differences are enough to make it a lot of fun.

My personal version of that would be:

Player: I attack him.
ME: Go for it.
Player: Wait, i try to disarm.
Me: Ok. Roll to hit, if it succeeds, you disarm him.

I don't see the need to have a fighter specialize by taking a feat, just so he can try to disarm people with efficiency or to avoid getting penalized (AOO) for trying something different than just attack....again. Making alternate manuevers harder than just to attack or even inaccessible by way of requiring them to get a feat to do something (like swinging harder) a trained warrior should already be able to do is no way to encourage them to do it. Which was exaclty the point i was trying to make in regards to the other posters supposition that 3E's extensive rules allowing players more freedom of action than DM's Fiat. The feat mechanic is a great idea that is terribly wasted and under-utilized.

The grappling rules aren't exactly a simple roll in 3rd edition, either.

 

[Henry]

Please tell me that by "got the job done" you meant "the giant pile-drived him."

Actually, no, because at the time, via magic, he was bigger and stronger than the giant. (These were a group of 11 9th & 10th level characters, after all.)

 

[PJ-Mason]

Grognards everywhere may laugh at me, but when I was running a 1E AD&D game last January in the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, I resorted to 3E grapple rules when someone wanted to wrestle a hill giant -- hey, it got the job done...

Hey, whatever works. We never used the grappling rules in 1E, though we had plenty of grappling. We looked at the rules and said.....nope! Pretty much the same response for 3E.
I remember once, back in 1E, someone wanted to wrestle something fricking huge (i think maybe a dragon), so i had him roll his force doors (or was it BB/LG? i forget now) strength thing to see if he could do it. Stupid me. Whenever you allow a tiny chance to do something ridiculous, the players WILL succeed. sigh.

 

[francisca]

Grognards everywhere may laugh at me, but when I was running a 1E AD&D game last January in the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, I resorted to 3E grapple rules when someone wanted to wrestle a hill giant -- hey, it got the job done...

Lookie here, Henry, I don't need a reason like that to laugh at you.


But hell yeah, anything but the grappling rules in the 1e DMG. I personally use the ones from UA (1e version), but would use the 3e stuff before I used the "stock" 1e DMG version.

 

[Mark Chance]

Wait a second. Now I'm confused. Are you bashing 3e or telling us that your DM is a failure at running the game?

Neither.

 

[Jupp]

It's sad when you have to use completely bogus examples to insult a game.

It's also very pathetic that the D&D [current edition] bashers can't participate in a conversation without throwing down their edition wars gauntlet.

Quasqueton

and vice versa for the D&D [past editions] bashers. You didnt really expect someting productive coming out of this thread, no?

As hexgrid stated earlier in this thread:

If this was slashdot, I'd mod this post "-1 flamebait."