First Immortals Gaming Session

[Buugipopuu]

Yesterday, I ran a game using the IH rules for the first time. All the characters were ECL 83 Lesser Deities, with 60 levels of equipment. Even though huge balance problems were encountered (everything I threw at them would have one-hitted the party had they been able to hit on anything other than a natural 20, with the exception of the party's tank, who still nearly died in two rounds of combat against an Advanced Pseudonatural Paragon Pit Fiend and was saved by it rolling an unlucky natural 1 against a Fort-Save or die effect), it seemed to work, since the monsters threatened the PCs without overwhelming them. All those Improved Critical multiplier abilities are really good. The party's rogue could deal over a thousand points of damage on a critical, even against things which were immune to critical hits. In general all the Divine Abilities worked out as really powerful, but they're supposed to be that way.

With all their spell slots, my players seemed to decide to waste them on principle "I cast 17 Quickened Magic Missiles", or using Summon Monster IX to open every single door. Having that many spell slots, and free metamagic lead to the casters using quickened divination spells on absolutely everything they encountered, which was a problem since I hadn't prepared histories for some of the things. Fortunately, ad-libbing that sort of thing isn't hard.

The most useful spells were Grease (The party's Wizard defeated an Orichalcum Guardian with it, thanks to unfavourable terrain conditions, and really high gravity) and Tensor's Floating Disc. The least useful were Meteor Swarm and Time Stop. Eventually they gave up on opening doors, and just Greater Teleported through them. Orichalcum Guardians are very strong for CR 69. Without the clever use of Grease, the party would have had real trouble beating it. "I attack the armoured figure with my 3 bastard swords and my mighty Mercurial ability" "All your attacks bounce off its invincible armour."

The players were really spooked when an Akishra started chasing them down a tunnel. "What do you mean it's an infinitely long worm? That doesn't make any sense." They ran away, and it was a good thing that they were all already Mind Blanked.

The most fun ability is easily Amazing Pockets.

In conclusion: Immortal-level play is as expected. Fights tend to end with the use of a single important ability, and when the PCs just waded in they got chewed up and spat out. Having access to many castings of True Ressurection makes players reckless. I asked them whether they had brought the material components. None of them had. They wished for them. Having 8 wishes per day means players wish for trivial things. "I wish I had a Holy Axiomatic Silver Dagger." "I coup de grace the Pit Fiend with the dagger before it regenerates." "I throw the dagger away."

 

[paradox42]

Great report. Thanks for sharing. So far, I only have one character using IH rules in my games, the one that found the Anyfeat loophole as mentioned in the Ascension thread. But last night we got that character into the first proper combat since gaining the Prophet template, and the Divine abilities were used to good effect.

Equinox (the character with the template) mostly used Anyfeat to keep access to the Hypercognition power, which was used for pretty much every significant question the party came up with, but it also played a role in getting them into position to carry out their mission of assassination after being found out by the target- it was switched to provide the party with a nonstandard mode of transport to carry out a variation on the "Scry n' fry" tactic (even though the target, a 19th-level priest of the god of Death, was protected from scrying and most divinations).

Suffice it to say they found him in the temple sanctuary with numerous guards, and after separating the room with a well-placed Wall of Force the party proceeded to take out the remaining two guards and then the priest himself. A natural 2 on a save against a Reciprocal Gyre took the priest out of the combat due to the daze effect of the spell. During this brief battle the party was most appreciative of Equinox using the Heroic aspect of the Divine aura, which gave them all +2 to the rolls they cared about.

Upon seeing the other guards ready to break through the Wall of Force with appropriate spells, Equinox switched Anyfeat to Disintegration Finesse^* to end the fight by blasting away the priest's body, leaving only his head- the proof the party had been contracted to bring back. With the massive boost to the save DC afforded to Equinox by Intellectual Spirit, the character's other Divine ability, the priest needed a nat 20 to save, and of course he didn't get it. So they POOFed the hells out of there, and got the head back to the one who'd hired them (a different priest of the god of death, who was going to make magic items for them if they did the job to his satisfaction). All in all it was a fun night.

The save DC boosting abilities are nasty in the right (or wrong) hands- but like Buugipopuu said, Divine abilities are supposed to be powerful. And so far, my experience with using IH abilities in actual play has also been positive.

I may get more such experience in the not-so-distant future, too- now that players realize divinity (even in minor form) is open to them, the Epic party members are starting to take notice and plot about how to get or use divine abilities. We'll see what happens there- so far the only overt manifestation of this new consciousness has been one of the party dragons asking a god the party was meeting with at the time how he might go about acquiring divinity. His comment OOC: "I'm size Huge, so of course I have huge balls."

^*Disintegration Finesse is from the Beholder chapter of Lords of Madness. It basically means that the creature using Disintegrate can choose to selectively leave certain portions of the target behind, and the only prerequisite is that the creature/character taking the feat be able to use Disintegrate- no need to actually be a beholder. The player had actually used Psychic Reformation on one previous occasion to switch the feat in for another he wasn't using at the time, and switched it back out once the need for an "artistic" Disintegrate had passed- so this was perfectly in character.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Buugi!

Yesterday, I ran a game using the IH rules for the first time. All the characters were ECL 83 Lesser Deities, with 60 levels of equipment.

Shouldn't they have 83rd-level equipment - just curious, or were you purposefully wanting to reduce their CRs?

Even though huge balance problems were encountered (everything I threw at them would have one-hitted the party had they been able to hit on anything other than a natural 20, with the exception of the party's tank, who still nearly died in two rounds of combat against an Advanced Pseudonatural Paragon Pit Fiend and was saved by it rolling an unlucky natural 1 against a Fort-Save or die effect), it seemed to work, since the monsters threatened the PCs without overwhelming them.

So the imbalance balanced itself out in different ways?

All those Improved Critical multiplier abilities are really good. The party's rogue could deal over a thousand points of damage on a critical, even against things which were immune to critical hits. In general all the Divine Abilities worked out as really powerful, but they're supposed to be that way.

With all their spell slots, my players seemed to decide to waste them on principle "I cast 17 Quickened Magic Missiles", or using Summon Monster IX to open every single door. Having that many spell slots, and free metamagic lead to the casters using quickened divination spells on absolutely everything they encountered, which was a problem since I hadn't prepared histories for some of the things. Fortunately, ad-libbing that sort of thing isn't hard.

The most useful spells were Grease (The party's Wizard defeated an Orichalcum Guardian with it, thanks to unfavourable terrain conditions, and really high gravity) and Tensor's Floating Disc. The least useful were Meteor Swarm and Time Stop. Eventually they gave up on opening doors, and just Greater Teleported through them. Orichalcum Guardians are very strong for CR 69. Without the clever use of Grease, the party would have had real trouble beating it. "I attack the armoured figure with my 3 bastard swords and my mighty Mercurial ability" "All your attacks bounce off its invincible armour."

Well an ECL 104 Fighter is roughly equal to an Orichalcum Guardian. Your PCs were a tad below that.

Although one of the main powers of the Orichalcum Golem is meant to be its AC. Attacks (even from immortals) are meant to just bounce off it. Of course you always hit on a 20.

Of course if you know you are only going to hit on a '20' you may as well power attack for your full BAB each attack.

The players were really spooked when an Akishra started chasing them down a tunnel. "What do you mean it's an infinitely long worm? That doesn't make any sense." They ran away, and it was a good thing that they were all already Mind Blanked.

The Akishra is a good opponent for a party of Lesser Gods.

The most fun ability is easily Amazing Pockets.

I do love that ability.

In conclusion: Immortal-level play is as expected. Fights tend to end with the use of a single important ability, and when the PCs just waded in they got chewed up and spat out.

As it should be. The monsters have to be a threat. Just wait until you start introducing them to unelementals.

Having access to many castings of True Ressurection makes players reckless.

True Resurrection doesn't work on Outsiders. Though technically death would just mean a return to the immortal's divine realm where its manifestation would rejuvenate.

I asked them whether they had brought the material components. None of them had. They wished for them. Having 8 wishes per day means players wish for trivial things. "I wish I had a Holy Axiomatic Silver Dagger." "I coup de grace the Pit Fiend with the dagger before it regenerates." "I throw the dagger away."

Come down on that hard. When they don't use wishes for answering mortal prayers, deduct 5000 quintessence from the immortal.

That way they will limit frivolous uses of power.

Great post - thanks for sharing! Very interesting indeed. I love hearing about powers/monsters I designed getting used in peoples campaigns and perhaps raising a few smiles/worry lines.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi paradox dude!

Just a thought guys - but it would be cool if you listed your PCs at the start of such posts, just so everyone can get a good gauge on things.

Just name, class levels/hit die and templates should suffice.

Great report. Thanks for sharing. So far, I only have one character using IH rules in my games, the one that found the Anyfeat loophole as mentioned in the Ascension thread. But last night we got that character into the first proper combat since gaining the Prophet template, and the Divine abilities were used to good effect.

Equinox (the character with the template) mostly used Anyfeat to keep access to the Hypercognition power, which was used for pretty much every significant question the party came up with, but it also played a role in getting them into position to carry out their mission of assassination after being found out by the target- it was switched to provide the party with a nonstandard mode of transport to carry out a variation on the "Scry n' fry" tactic (even though the target, a 19th-level priest of the god of Death, was protected from scrying and most divinations).

Suffice it to say they found him in the temple sanctuary with numerous guards, and after separating the room with a well-placed Wall of Force the party proceeded to take out the remaining two guards and then the priest himself. A natural 2 on a save against a Reciprocal Gyre took the priest out of the combat due to the daze effect of the spell. During this brief battle the party was most appreciative of Equinox using the Heroic aspect of the Divine aura, which gave them all +2 to the rolls they cared about.

Nice.

Upon seeing the other guards ready to break through the Wall of Force with appropriate spells, Equinox switched Anyfeat to Disintegration Finesse^* to end the fight by blasting away the priest's body, leaving only his head- the proof the party had been contracted to bring back. With the massive boost to the save DC afforded to Equinox by Intellectual Spirit, the character's other Divine ability, the priest needed a nat 20 to save, and of course he didn't get it. So they POOFed the hells out of there, and got the head back to the one who'd hired them (a different priest of the god of death, who was going to make magic items for them if they did the job to his satisfaction). All in all it was a fun night.

The save DC boosting abilities are nasty in the right (or wrong) hands- but like Buugipopuu said, Divine abilities are supposed to be powerful. And so far, my experience with using IH abilities in actual play has also been positive.

Glad to hear it.

Yes the Divine Abilities (notably the stat doublers) are meant to be powerful, but would I be right in thinking Equinox had a higher ECL than the enemy priest?

I may get more such experience in the not-so-distant future, too- now that players realize divinity (even in minor form) is open to them, the Epic party members are starting to take notice and plot about how to get or use divine abilities. We'll see what happens there-

No point forcing it on them. They have to want it.

so far the only overt manifestation of this new consciousness has been one of the party dragons asking a god the party was meeting with at the time how he might go about acquiring divinity. His comment OOC: "I'm size Huge, so of course I have huge balls."

^*Disintegration Finesse is from the Beholder chapter of Lords of Madness. It basically means that the creature using Disintegrate can choose to selectively leave certain portions of the target behind, and the only prerequisite is that the creature/character taking the feat be able to use Disintegrate- no need to actually be a beholder. The player had actually used Psychic Reformation on one previous occasion to switch the feat in for another he wasn't using at the time, and switched it back out once the need for an "artistic" Disintegrate had passed- so this was perfectly in character.

Cool - I was wondering where that was from.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Come down on that hard. When they don't use wishes for answering mortal prayers, deduct 5000 quintessence from the immortal.

That way they will limit frivolous uses of power.

Great post - thanks for sharing! Very interesting indeed. I love hearing about powers/monsters I designed getting used in peoples campaigns and perhaps raising a few smiles/worry lines.

Wait, what? Why?

 

[Buugipopuu]

Hey Buugi!

Hail.

Shouldn't they have 83rd-level equipment - just curious, or were you purposefully wanting to reduce their CRs?

The pantheon the PCs belonged to was facing a crisis of resources, as it had had many of its deities slain at once in an internal power struggle that escalated into a full blown war. Gods were being offed left and right, which means anyone who didn't get destroyed ended up with a pile of extra Quintessence (either from killing gods themselves or having their clerics convert the worshippers of recently slain gods), but had no chance to get new gear.

The characters my players had brought were a Human Fighter 20/Legendary Dreadnought 40, A Paragon Human Rogue 23/Assassin 20, A Paragon Human Monk 2/Fighter 8/Sorcerer 20/(Gold) Dragon Disciple 13 (I had allowed this player to augment his Half-Dragon breath weapon with a Fire Breath divine ability, and combine the dice of both) and a Sarrukh Wizard 33/Archmage 5.

So the imbalance balanced itself out in different ways?

Effectively, yes.

Well an ECL 104 Fighter is roughly equal to an Orichalcum Guardian. Your PCs were a tad below that.

Although one of the main powers of the Orichalcum Golem is meant to be its AC. Attacks (even from immortals) are meant to just bounce off it. Of course you always hit on a 20.

Of course if you know you are only going to hit on a '20' you may as well power attack for your full BAB each attack.

They were hurting it (Heavy Eradication is the best ability for fighting golems.), just after the first hit from its plasma beam, which took the Half Dragon down from full health to nearly dead (Only saved by his immunity to fire), they were looking somewhat outmatched. Then the Guardian was foiled by a mere 1st level spell (and my revised falling damage rules, which adjust for size and virtual size to bring it in line with the Epic Bestiary suggestions on natural weapons). It should have chosen a less stupid place to fight, but it's mindless.

The Akishra is a good opponent for a party of Lesser Gods.

Unfortunately, none of them got swallowed, which is a pity, because that's the Akishra's coolest ability.

As it should be. The monsters have to be a threat. Just wait until you start introducing them to unelementals.

As a matter of fact, during the session the players located a stash of orbs containing imprisoned elementals of all types. All the ones corresponding to Quintessence and Unelementals had been suspiciously removed before they got there. The casters had a habit of spamming divination spells at anything interesting looking, so they have an idea of where the thieves went.

True Resurrection doesn't work on Outsiders. Though technically death would just mean a return to the immortal's divine realm where its manifestation would rejuvenate.

According to the SRD and the PHB, it can.

Come down on that hard. When they don't use wishes for answering mortal prayers, deduct 5000 quintessence from the immortal.

That way they will limit frivolous uses of power.

Great post - thanks for sharing! Very interesting indeed. I love hearing about powers/monsters I designed getting used in peoples campaigns and perhaps raising a few smiles/worry lines.

That seems like a good way of solving it.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
Come down on that hard. When they don't use wishes for answering mortal prayers, deduct 5000 quintessence from the immortal.

That way they will limit frivolous uses of power.

Great post - thanks for sharing! Very interesting indeed. I love hearing about powers/monsters I designed getting used in peoples campaigns and perhaps raising a few smiles/worry lines.

U_K!
Any guidelines as to how often is using wish for self gain is "frivolous?" (Like x times a week based on number of WP? A deities with little or no worshippers (Tutelar, or a Highlander-esque strategy for divinity) wouldn't seem to have as much of a restriction here as a Deity who gains all their quintessence from worshippers. (A good strategy early-divinity, but Sloooooow once you hit cosmic levels of power. Better make the entire universe your body of worshippers. )
Which reminds me, any ETA on the Resonance rules? (My players think its funny that you can do things Highlander style, and it works much better than being a kind and loving god)

It's cool to see someone got a game going. Its hilarious an Orichalcum Guardian was felled by a 1st level spell. (A well placed spell, but a weak one none the less)

 

[paradox42]

Just a thought guys - but it would be cool if you listed your PCs at the start of such posts, just so everyone can get a good gauge on things.

Just name, class levels/hit die and templates should suffice.

I usually don't do that, because in my games the players use so much of my homebrewed stuff that half the post would be taken up by explanation of what's what. Still, since you asked, and this is a new post, I'll put up character data and explanations below.

-Equinox (LE Psylon Psion (Telepath) 13/Arch-Psion 4 with Prophet of Nexus template- Portfolios are Dominance and Concealment, Divine abilities taken are Anyfeat and Intellectual Spirit)
-Talor (LE Astari Bard 7/Antipaladin 10)
-Kol'reat (TN Desert Orc (raised by High Orcs) Conjoiner 16)
-Esadira (NE Human Ranger 16, archery path with Favored Enemy (Human) among other things)
-Viresse (NE Gren Florant 16)
-Tlin (NE Crystalloid Warlock (Alienoid) 15)

See what I mean? Now, explanations- we'll go character by character.

Equinox- Psylon is the weakest subrace of illithid, notable for being the only one that does not eat brains, though they also gain no spell-like (or even psi-like) abilities. Psylons can have skin colored virtually any imaginable color, and since their names among each other are telepathic images, they typically adopt nicknames among other races which are related to their skin tones. Equinox is black-skinned, with lighter tones near the bone structures that happen to look yellowish. Arch-Psion is a 3.5-updated version of the PrC introduced in a Mind's Eye article on the WotC website some years ago; it's like an Archmage for psionicists. And, Nexus is the LE god of Power, Corruption, and Disease who often offers "deals" to mortals in exchange for their souls, much like The Devil did in European folklore of the middle ages. In Equinox's case, this deal means that if ve (illithids are genderless, and I long ago adopted the convention of using pronouns 've,' 'ver,' and 'verself' for genderless sentient creatures used in Greg Egan's novel Diaspora) ever dies, no resurrection will be possible- the soul goes straight to Nexus and stays there.

Talor- Astari is a subrace of human, one of the few that has a level adjustment (though Talor bought his off long ago using UA rules). Their main ability is to 'phase out,' which is like a weaker version of incorporeality that doesn't give them the full benefits in terms of damage avoidance, and also doesn't let them fly. Antipaladin is the 'Holy Exemplar' prestige class of Nexus's religion, and is one of nine 'Holy Warrior' classes in my world including Paladin itself (Paladin is not allowed as a core class in my game, it's a prestige class dedicated to the god Thero). Talor chose the unusual path of using Bard to qualify for the prestige class so he could get and abuse the Snowflake Wardance feat from Frostburn. He's the party's tank, basically- he never uses his spellcasting abilities in practice.

Kol'reat- Desert Orc is, of course, a subrace of Orc. However, in Kol'reat's case he was raised among a different subrace, which by my race ability rules means he loses the Cultural abilities of the Desert Orcs and in their place gains those of the High Orcs. "Cultural" abilities are a subset of (Ex) racial qualities which arise from the associated race's cultural traditions, values, mores, etc., and are thus not gained by a being using shapeshifting magic to become a member of that race. And in this case, it allows for a really unusual character background to result in a character with very unusual racial traits. Conjoiner, on the other hand, is a homebrew core class that combines (Arcane) magical and psionic advancement in one package, along with certain channelling abilities that allow the character to enhance one by depleting the other (for instance, spending psionic power points to Metamagic a spell). At 16th level, Kol'reat only has access to 5th-level spells and powers; it takes Conjoiners until 27th to gain 9th-level spells and powers.

Esadira- wow, no explanations needed! What a weirdo!

Viresse- Gren are a subrace of human that have the ability to photosynthesize (and thus have green skin, leading to their race name) and specifically have Druid as their favored class. Florant is a homebrew Sorcerer variant that gains its power from the natural world, and specifically from plant life, and as a result has a very different spell list than regular Arcane casters. Viresse has specialized in the Enchantment side of Florants, playing a seductress-type character, though she's also made good use of the Florant ability of "Manipulation" to learn how to make spell-like effects which closely mimic spells used by other Arcane casters. Most recently, she picked up Magic Missile from Kol'reat, and during the assassination mission picked up Invisibility as well.

Tlin- Crystalloid is a race of humanoid Earth Elementals that subsist on gems, crystals, and other minerals, based largely on the race of crystalline people from the Robotech Sentinels series (novels and shows). They have a level adjustment, which Tlin bought off using UA rules, though it left him the lowest-level member of the current party. Alienoid is a variant Warlock I made for my game which gets its powers from the Far Realm instead of fiends; thus they have a different selection of invocations but are otherwise pretty much the same as standard Warlocks. I also made a thread some time ago in the House Rules forum detailing these Alienoid Warlocks, which may be found here. At the time I started that thread, no player had yet tried a Warlock in my games; Tlin is a replacement character for one that the player was dissatisfied with. He's enjoying Tlin much more, and so far the character has impressed the party with the stunts he's pulled off so he seems to be in for the long haul.

Whew. Hope your eyes didn't get tired reading all that.

Yes the Divine Abilities (notably the stat doublers) are meant to be powerful, but would I be right in thinking Equinox had a higher ECL than the enemy priest?

You are, of course, correct. With the template in place, Equinox comes out to ECL 23 overall, and was the only character to gain less than 1000 XP for the mission (in fact I believe the amount was ~360).

No point forcing it on them. They have to want it.

Naturally. As I said in game when that very dragon's player was bellyaching about this cool option being given to the characters in the other game and not this one, I responded with "I've never said you couldn't. It just so happens that Equinox found a method and pursued it first." So, on the spot, the player decided that his new long-term goal would be acquiring divinity.

It's nice for players to have personal goals, I suppose.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anabstercorian mate!

Wait, what? Why?

Well a wish costs you 5000 XP. Therefore casting wishes should cost an immortal 5000 XP or quintessence.

However, this shouldn't affect granted wishes - because you can make the one granting the wish pay for the XP cost - one reason why you only grant wishes to high level characters.

Alter Reality would be a way to cast wish without needing to expend XP/Quintessence.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hail.

Howdy!

The pantheon the PCs belonged to was facing a crisis of resources, as it had had many of its deities slain at once in an internal power struggle that escalated into a full blown war. Gods were being offed left and right, which means anyone who didn't get destroyed ended up with a pile of extra Quintessence (either from killing gods themselves or having their clerics convert the worshippers of recently slain gods), but had no chance to get new gear.

Part of me likes the idea of just having the immortal's equipment grow in power as the immortal gains power.

The characters my players had brought were a

- Human Fighter 20/Legendary Dreadnought 40,
- Paragon Human Rogue 23/Assassin 20,
- Paragon Human Monk 2/Fighter 8/Sorcerer 20/(Gold) Dragon Disciple 13 (I had allowed this player to augment his Half-Dragon breath weapon with a Fire Breath divine ability, and combine the dice of both) and a
- Sarrukh Wizard 33/Archmage 5.

I wonder what the Paragon Template is in terms of ECL. Its probably a bit higher than the ELH suggests. Probably a minimum ECL +20. I assume you are using ECL +17 or +18? Shouldn't make that much of a difference either way though given what level you are playing at.

Effectively, yes.

They were hurting it (Heavy Eradication is the best ability for fighting golems.), just after the first hit from its plasma beam, which took the Half Dragon down from full health to nearly dead (Only saved by his immunity to fire), they were looking somewhat outmatched. Then the Guardian was foiled by a mere 1st level spell (and my revised falling damage rules, which adjust for size and virtual size to bring it in line with the Epic Bestiary suggestions on natural weapons). It should have chosen a less stupid place to fight, but it's mindless.

I knew I should have given them hover boots as standard!

Unfortunately, none of them got swallowed, which is a pity, because that's the Akishra's coolest ability.

As a matter of fact, during the session the players located a stash of orbs containing imprisoned elementals of all types. All the ones corresponding to Quintessence and Unelementals had been suspiciously removed before they got there. The casters had a habit of spamming divination spells at anything interesting looking, so they have an idea of where the thieves went.

Maybe I should have included Primal versions of my Elementals...something for the website I think.

According to the SRD and the PHB, it can.

Yes I just read over my PHB. I'm a tad uncomfortable with the idea.

That seems like a good way of solving it.

You can't give immortal players an inch or they take a mile.