First Reaper, now Deadlands!

[hexgrid]

...Confrontation (Rackham's fantasy game) will also get a lot of prepainted plastics soon...

Does anyone have a link confirming this?

 

[Twowolves]

Umm. Are we talking about the same hobby game industry?

Obviously you would know better than I would.

But PEG is still around after 10+ years, Reaper longer than that, and at least PEG isn't in a position to take a gamble that might close their doors forever with a big failure in a venture that industry insiders have told us is impossible to make profitable. I'd assume Mr Hensley has done his homework before taking this risk.

Or are you telling me that Mr Hensley doesn't know what he's doing?

 

[Henrix]

Does anyone have a link confirming this?

Here are a bunch of statements from Jean Bey, the president of Rackham, on the English Rackham forums.

 

[JustKim]

I read the threads, and the rationale behind them. Many people asked "why can't they release an orc pack/animal pack/undead pack with 6-12 non-random minis in it?" and others said "can't be done, here's why".

We're not talking about the same thread here. I'm talking about the one where WotC's reasons for random distribution are given. And if you're talking about the one I think you are, the thread was started to discuss an open call on the WotC board for what people would like to see in Iconics sets. Anyone who says "that's impossible, WotC can't do that" first has to ignore where they are saying "we're doing it, and want your ideas".

Ok, great! Tell me where I can get a huge dragon, a demon, a devil, a beholder or chimera for under $25-$40!

Alright.
Sorcerer on black dragon ($15): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/38742
Aspect of Bahamut ($19): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/38715
Bearded devil ($11): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/46362
Ice devil ($17): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/56863
Pit fiend ($24): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/56859
Beholder lich ($28): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/82607
Chimera ($25): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/46556
Granted, you are probably not going to find Deathknell's beholder or Giants of Legend's huge red dragon for less than $50.

And for a large sized monster from Reaper, it'll cost around $15-$20 for anything but the most colossal of figures, and adding in the cost of paint and brushes to artificially inflate the single figure cost is dishonest.

I don't think it's dishonest because I'm speaking from personal experience. I have a huge collection of DDM that I've spent about $1,000 on. This represents hundreds of figures that would've taken an immeasurable amount of time to paint. I also tried a bit of miniature painting, and getting started with paints, brushes, and dozens of inobvious other supplies has run me about $300. I do not have anywhere near a hundred figures to show for all this. So while the supplies may not need replacing often, it would take a huge investment of time to break even with the value of DDM figures.

That's a lot less than $20-$30 for a pack of 5 (the orcs are 6 for $14, and the skeletons are 6 for less than $12), and these are the non-random prepainted plastic minis they are planning on releasing this summer.

I was talking about the unpainted metal minis, not the plastic painted ones.

 

[Twowolves]

Alright.
Sorcerer on black dragon ($15): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/38742
Aspect of Bahamut ($19): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/38715
Bearded devil ($11): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/46362
Ice devil ($17): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/56863
Pit fiend ($24): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/56859
Beholder lich ($28): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/82607
Chimera ($25): http://miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/46556
Granted, you are probably not going to find Deathknell's beholder or Giants of Legend's huge red dragon for less than $50.

Three of those you listed were $24 or more. Kinda proves my point.

I don't think it's dishonest because I'm speaking from personal experience. I have a huge collection of DDM that I've spent about $1,000 on. This represents hundreds of figures that would've taken an immeasurable amount of time to paint. I also tried a bit of miniature painting, and getting started with paints, brushes, and dozens of inobvious other supplies has run me about $300. I do not have anywhere near a hundred figures to show for all this. So while the supplies may not need replacing often, it would take a huge investment of time to break even with the value of DDM figures.

Ok, so you spent over $1000 on DDM, but $300 on reusable supplies is too much? And honestly, I have no idea how you could spend $300 on metal mini paint supplies unless you were trying to waste money. A set of brushes: under $10. Paints (1 oz btls): $0.87 each. Primer: $8. Sealant: $8. Xacto knife: under $10. Maybe if you went all out and bought the complete set of Games Workshop paints or a magnifying fluorescent light, or a pygmy assistant, I can see it running that high, maybe.

Painting isn't fast, but my worst figure looks better than DDM's best any day of the week. In our group, myself and another paint the PC's in metal, and I use DDMs and painted metal for NPCs/monsters. But the DDMs I have are random, or bought online at a lot more than $2 each on average.

I'm definately going to pick up a ton of the Reaper prepainted minis, and probably one of each set of these new PEG Deadlands sets. I hope the concept is profitable for both of these companies, and the competition helps WotC rethink some of the ideas for cannon-fodder mini packs.

 

[Glyfair]

Or are you telling me that Mr Hensley doesn't know what he's doing?

No, he's saying the hobby industry, as a rule, doesn't do market research. At least, not more than putting out feelers to a few fans about what they want. Asking fans at conventions was about as far as it used to go. Today they might ask on their own or related message boards.

During the 3E announcements when bits and pieces of WotC's market research was released people were amazed. Not at the responses, but at the fact that a hobby game company was doing real market research.

Even today, after WotC showed what real market research can do, I doubt that many companies do significant market research. Most probably can't afford it, for one thing.

 

[Thanee]

Does anyone have a link confirming this?

Here are a bunch of statements from Jean Bey, the president of Rackham, on the English Rackham forums.

From there...

Besides, we are also developing a range of plastic miniatures, painted and assembled, like the range we offer for AT-43.

This plastic miniatures range will be entirely compatible with the current metal range. In fact, our goal is to release the troops found in each army supplement, in ready to play boxes (meaning each box will contain the valid number of miniatures to form a unit of its own).

Obviously, a large part of the miniatures that will be produced in plastic already exist in metal. But some completely new miniatures are planned to be plastic, like the Griffin heavy cavalry for instance. (You will be soon able to witness the quality of these miniatures in a few weeks time).

The development of our plastic range will give us the opportunity to re-sculpt some of our older miniatures, giving them the chance to benefit from the latest technical achievements we have today.

We will maintain our metal production, although the volumes will be less important. The metal production will be voluntarily concentrated on our charismatic miniatures. These miniatures still have the ambition of offering new challenges to our talented customer. Plastic and metal will stand side by side on the players? tables without it having any negative effects on the game.

If we have chosen assembled and painted plastic today, it is only after two years of research and production tests made to reach what we are able to produce today, i.e. the AT-43 range.

Bye
Thanee

 

[JustKim]

Three of those you listed were $24 or more. Kinda proves my point.

How so? I said that most of the high end figures don't sell for more than $30 and you challenged that by asking for examples of figures less than $25-$40. Well, only one of them is more than $25 and none of them are more than $30. I think this supports what I said.

Ok, so you spent over $1000 on DDM, but $300 on reusable supplies is too much? And honestly, I have no idea how you could spend $300 on metal mini paint supplies unless you were trying to waste money.

I can give you some idea, although the amount of money I truly need to spend on anything D&D-related is highly subjective.
A set of brushes: under $10. I've spent $30 on brushes of several different sizes. They are mostly sable brushes- camel hair is cheap, but you will leave brush hairs on your model and they don't hold a point. The rest are disposable brushes for drybrushing, priming, sealing and painting with metal paints, all of which will ruin brushes for detail work.
Paints (1 oz btls): $0.87 each. No, they are about $3 each.
Every figure has also cost me $4 to $12. Since DDM has left me with way too many humanoids, I mostly want the big monster figures and scenery, which has added up to quite a lot of money.

I'm definately going to pick up a ton of the Reaper prepainted minis, and probably one of each set of these new PEG Deadlands sets. I hope the concept is profitable for both of these companies, and the competition helps WotC rethink some of the ideas for cannon-fodder mini packs.

There isn't any part of this I can disagree with! Please try to be more controversial next time or I will have difficulty arguing with you.

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

I'm honestly curious about something:

When people compare the prices of DDMs on the secondary market (Miniature Marketplace [under $74.00), eBay, etc) to the proposed prices for these upcoming pre-painted miniatures, why does no one mention shipping costs?

For me, the cost of shipping is not considered a separate expense when buying a miniature through the secondary market. It is as much of the final price as sales tax would be on a set of Reaper/PEG pre-painted miniatures bought in the store.

Am I missing something?

A miniature that sells for $2.00 on eBay and comes with a $2.50 S&H fee isn't a $2.00 mini, it's a $4.50 mini!

 

[Glyfair]

I'm honestly curious about something:

When people compare the prices of DDMs on the secondary market (Miniature Marketplace [under $74.00), eBay, etc) to the proposed prices for these upcoming pre-painted miniatures, why does no one mention shipping costs?

For me, the cost of shipping is not considered a separate expense when buying a miniature through the secondary market. It is as much of the final price as sales tax would be on a set of Reaper/PEG pre-painted miniatures bought in the store.

Am I missing something?

A miniature that sells for $2.00 on eBay and comes with a $2.50 S&H fee isn't a $2.00 mini, it's a $4.50 mini!

The likelihood that a miniature (or miniature set) is usually listed as an advantage in the discussions. After all the pre-painted miniatures have shipping expenses as well when ordered online. Only if your local store actually carries (or will order) the miniatures will you save money.

Also, shipping costs can vary a lot. One popular eBay store has a flat rate for shipping. Shipping becomes quite inexpensive when buying a reasonable amount of miniatures (less than some states sales tax without spending very much money).