First rule I don't like

[drjones]

How about before the player roles damage and before you tell them that they dropped the opponent, the player must decide if the damage is lethal or subdual.

Yeah they don't know if the guy has 5 hp left (unless they are watching bloodied numbers very closely) if they really want a prisoner they will be 'going for subdual' most of the fight, which imo should have some slight negative to it.

Also while it is assumed that monsters who go below 0 pts are 'dead' immediately I would rule that if a player wanted to do a heal check or cast a cure on an enemy who was not hit really hard (only a few pts below 0) they could keep them from dieing and interrogate that way.

 

[Darkwolf71]

Let's use the rules we have to get what we want, shall we?

• Unless otherwise specified, characters deal lethal damage with their attacks and will kill a target when its hit points drop to 0 or lower.
• If a player specifies that their character is dealing non-lethal damage before the attack is resolved, the attack cannot kill the target, but will instead knock the target unconscious if its hit points drop to 0 or lower.
• If a player decides to deal non-lethal damage after the attack is resolved for any attack drops the target to 0 hit points or lower, then the target must make an immediate saving throw. Success indicates the target is inconscious, failure means the target dies.

Simple enough.

Get ye gone, Common Sense, thou hast no power here.


Seriously, I intend to run things as written to start and house rule as things go along. I imagne after a couple run ins with this rule it will be changed to something along these lines.

 

[eamon]

Seriously, I intend to run things as written to start and house rule as things go along. I imagne after a couple run ins with this rule it will be changed to something along these lines.

Since generally fewer house-rules are better house-rules, I think the real question is how many of these situations come up. Your approach is almost certainly what one we'll be taking too - first play, then see. Maybe the DMG has suggestions ala 3.5 for rule variations?

 

[Argyuile]

If they want to leave the bosses alive to chat with him, that's fine too. Better than the old "This guy keeps all his correspondence in a chest. Look, a clue!" hook to the next quest.

This made me lol.

Pc1 "He's dead now what"
Pc2 "Open Outlook, surely there is a clue in there"

 

[infax]

Fighter: "Remember, we don't want to kill them, we should do non-lethal damage to them, we want to question them afterwords!"

Ranger: "Agreed. Wait. They have an AC of 30, I need 14s to hit them with my bow and I have weapon focus, and a dex of 20. I have a strength of 10 and no magic melee weapons. I'll need 20s to hit them, even if I don't take the -4 for doing non-lethal. Guess I'll roll a dice each round in the hopes I roll a 20. If I DO hit, I'll do 1d8 non-lethal against a creature with 81 hitpoints."

Fighter: "Well, you could always just keep shooting with your bow, and I'll be doing non-lethal. Then, hopefully he won't die."

Wizard: "What do I do? I can't do non-lethal and none of my spells are non-lethal."

Fighter: "Do the same thing as the Ranger."

(2 rounds of combat later)

Ranger: "Woo hoo...I crit, I do THREE times my normal damage. That's...58."

DM: "Alright, that puts him down. Unfortunately, he had 1 hitpoint left. He's taken 40 points of non-lethal, 40 points of lethal and he had 81 hitpoints total. The 58 takes him to -17 with real damage killing him."

Fighter: "What did you DO? Remember, we wanted him ALIVE. How are we going to figure out who killed the King now? He was our ONLY lead! How could you be so stupid?"

Ranger: "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to roll a crit! I just got lucky!"

Fighter: "There's nothing lucky about that crit!"

VS

Ranger: "I hit, I do 27 damage with my attack."

DM: "That drops him, would you like him dead or unconscious?"

Fighter: "Remember, he might be the only one to know who killed the King, keep him alive."

Ranger: "Alright, unconscious then."

That's an interesting point.

I most games I have GMed, that is exactly the moment in the game where the players stop a bit and have to figure out a plan. Which I like.

I really like it when the game isn't just "open the next door, use the same strategies, recover, repeat". So, in the scenario you described, using arrows and the standard spells will not be an option. Maybe the players will devise something with a net, a pit fall or they'll kidnap someone relevant to that big 81hp enemy.

And then, maybe, just maybe, the Wizard will think a little bit beyond "the biggest available damage" the next time he selects a spell and won't be caught in such a bind next time they cannot actually kill someone.

I would guess it is the same reason many people like to keep their games on the Heroic Tier (to use a 4e expression), when presenting the party with a cliff or a raging river to cross and a guarded bridge forces them to come up with some kind of plan instead of just casting fly on the whole party. Sure you can try something similar with plane hopping at Paragon Path and a guarded portal, but it is simply harder to use player knowledge to come up with a plan to cross to another dimension.

 

[SableWyvern]

I really like it when the game isn't just "open the next door, use the same strategies, recover, repeat". So, in the scenario you described, using arrows and the standard spells will not be an option. Maybe the players will devise something with a net, a pit fall or they'll kidnap someone relevant to that big 81hp enemy.

And then, maybe, just maybe, the Wizard will think a little bit beyond "the biggest available damage" the next time he selects a spell and won't be caught in such a bind next time they cannot actually kill someone.

This, I like.

 

[Korgoth]

I'll probably just go with this as my First Official House Rule:

Stike to Subdue: Unarmed and weapon attacks can be made so as to merely injure and incapacitate, rather than kill outright. When such an attack is made, it may be declared as a Strike to Subdue. If such an attack drops the foe to 0 or less HP, the foe is incapacitated but not killed. Strikes to Subdue are at -4 to hit.

 

[DSRilk]

Hit points are an abstraction, so a crossbow bolt isn't necessarily striking an organ. It could simply be a graze that pushes the enemy over the edge to the point of collapse.

For many games, letting the players choose works perfectly fine. For those where it doesn't, using the same rules as for PCs works just fine (assuming the DM wants to track all that). As someone else said, easy alternatives are things like 0 is unconscious, save or die each round -- or die after 3 failed saves. I think this method makes more sense than trying to turn some hit point loss into actual physical (structural) damage when most is just an abstraction.

To think of it another way (and the way in which I think 4e means it), 0 hp means beaten to the point of no longer being a threat. Given how vaguely hp are associated with tangible wounds in 4e, I think this makes more sense. The question then becomes what happens to the creature when it is no longer a threat? Depending on your need for "realism" and and/or a "random" universe with less DM or player plot control, it could be 0 = unable to perform actions other than threatening players in a hushed tone as they gargle their own blood, 1 failed save means unconscious but can be stirred to barely conscious with effort, 2 failed saves is irrevocably unconscious until healed to 1 hp, and 3 failed saves is dead as a doornail.

 

[mlund]

I like this rule because it removes tracking hit points and non-lethal damage points from the equations. Players don't have to try and meta-game around monster hit points or ask for house-rule information from the DM about the enemy's condition.

The attack and damage rolls indicate that their character has found an opening in the enemy's defenses to strike the final blow and they've taken the opportunity. Now the DM just needs to know whether they exploited the opportunity to kill or merely fell their enemy.

Simple and clean. You can complicate it all you want from there.

- Marty Lund

 

[Pbartender]

Get ye gone, Common Sense, thou hast no power here.

Yeah... well...

At least someone noticed this time around.

- Pbar "spitting in the wind" Ooi.