First time making a "serious" dungeon! How do you do it?

[Quickleaf]

Next, I'll stick those elements that can be mapped onto a map without bothering much about joining them together unless particular elements are supposed to be together.

Then I'll fill in whatever bits are required to join it all together, including some empty rooms and - if multiple vertical levels are involved - lots of vertical access points. After that I'll worry about how to get in and out, preferably ending up with several entrances. After that I'll fill in the inhabitants whose locations aren't already set.

Thanks Lanefan. Yeah, that's my next step. I've got a loose association of places and I'm brainstorming chamber adjacencies. Takes a bit of thought, and I'm still figuring out my list of chambers, so it's very much in flux.

The basic layout has maybe four core principles:

1. The citadel is built into the rock-face of a caldera ridge (think Petra), with levels above and below the "ground floor" hewn from the stone and lava rock. The rock-face would be where the Gate of Mysteries is.
2. The citadel's "ground floor" is organized around an enchanted courtyard space: The Great Garden. A 100-ft diameter space boasting real plants and a bubbling fountain, with an illusory sky, and clever construction & a permanent maze spell making it appear endless to the untrained. Many archways open off of the Great Garden, connecting other areas.
3. Chambers are connected by a series of repeated room/passage types that reinforce the theme (mystical ancient flame mage citadel in the desert). While chambers will be #'d areas, these will be lettered (A, B, C) frequent areas.
4. A few areas are distinct from the rest, notably: The Teleportation Circle is away from the rest because there is a permanent forbiddance spell on most of the citadel. The Bonfire's Tower is like a mini 5-room dungeon wizard's tower within the larger dungeon, containing the Phoenix Egg Chamber among others. The Sacred Ruins are unlike the rest of the citadel, dating back to the mystics of an ancient civilization before they were corrupted into the Brotherhood.

As for monsters, the only obvious things I don't see that would fit would be a Bulette or two outside and - to throw them off a bit - a few Mummies, in a hidden area isolated from all those fire-chuckers!

Bulette! Oh man, haven't seen one of those critters in a game in ages. They are arcane creations, apparently, so maybe there's a way I can work that into the story. Another layer of defense/deterrent created by The Bonfire and his alchemists perhaps.

You're the second person to suggest mummies to me. I do have wights acting as "crypt servants" tending the flame mage tombs & urns of their ashes. I wonder where mummies might fit? Hmm. Maybe the long-long dead pre-Brotherhood mystics have mummies in their ranks? Maybe playing up their "undead archivist" role...Lawful Neutral mummy philosophers...they were originally created to preserve the original teachings in the face of growing corruption in their ranks...The Bonfire wavers between having them all put to the torch, but finds the glimmer of knowledge he occasionally gleans from their raspy riddling mouths to be worth keeping them sequestered.

 

[Quickleaf]

I think it's time for a quick recap. This is my first time doing "serious" dungeon design. I've made small 3 to 10 room dungeons in the past, but they rarely had that living well-crafted sense that famous D&D dungeons have (or ideally have). Getting over my intimidation, I tried to assemble a list of guiding principles to avoid common pitfalls like providing meaningful choices, creating consistent logic, offering branching pathways and avoiding chokepoints (except where done intentionally and mindfully as a "gating" tool), presenting dungeon-appropriate traps as patterns that PCs can decode and interact with rather than "gotchas", having secrets and surprises for PCs to discover, and (since this is high-level) for actually challenging PCs with high-level capabilities both in terms of tactics/strategy and in terms of scope/dilemmas.

No pressure.

So my next step was to articulate the dungeon's theme, purpose, creators, current occupiers, and level. Done.

[SBLOCK=The Basics]Theme: Krak al-Mazhar is the perilous mystic desert lair of the Brotherhood of True Flame built into a caldera.
Purpose: The players may choose to venture to Krak al-Mazhar for a number of reasons both personal and larger-scale (e.g. stopping the mage pogrom, getting ruler out from underneath the Brotherhood's leverage), and they have multiple ways they can go about approaching the dungeon both literally (multiple entrances) and metaphorically (sneaking, going undercover, assaulting the dungeon, guerrilla strike, etc.).
Creators: Mystics of The Fire Most Pure, devoted to maintaining the ever-burning braziers of the ruined city-state of Al-Anwahar, originally created Krak al-Mazhar as a sanctuary when they fled bloody civil war. They were guided by an asuras to that inhospitable spot.
Current Occupiers: The Brotherhood of True Flame and its servitors occupies the dungeon now, having emerged from the corrupted remnants of the mystics. The are led by The Bonfire.
Level: Designed for four to five 15th-16th PCs. Characters are anticipated to have 8th-level spells and clerics to have Destroy Undead (CR 3). The stakes of the adventure start off deceptively small and ramp up, with the Brotherhood quickly making the conflict personal and having the potential to expand into a long-term struggle imperiling an entire nation.[/SBLOCK]

Then I was encouraged to think of common sense aspects of design relating to food/water supply, breathing, sleep, and entrances/exits. Done.

[SBLOCK=Common Sense Design]
1. How do they breathe?
Most are resistant to fire damage which helps with breathing excessively hot air in places. Otherwise, there's ventilation thanks to a few shafts/lava tubes leading to the caldera's surface. Overlooks and "screen" doors (mashrabiya / jalis) let in airflow as well.

2. Where do they sleep?
They sleep in areas away from the hazardous fumaroles, in quarters (for mages and priests) or barracks (for mamluks and holy slayers).

3. What do they eat?
Precious little game lives in the Great Anvil, the most inhospitable desert in the land, however the Brotherhood do harvest scorpions and beetles, and hunt fire lizards, giant mason wasps, and dangerous salt worms (desert-adapted remorhaz). Because of this limited diet, they rely on trade with mysterious fierce janni tribes who don't mind charging exorbitant prices to the sinister cultists, or else shipments by their allied merchants usually via teleportation circle and sending stones (made of volcanic rock from the caldera). When food is scarce, they force captive janni to create food and water (a spell forbidden to their priests of Kossuth as it involves water).

4. What do they drink?
There is an aquifer deep below the caldera, but it has become tainted with chlorides & sulfides. The alchemists and priests of the Brotherhood have devised a means of extracting the acids/poisons to yield pure water (as well as useful ingredients for more nefarious purposes). Additionally, the Brotherhood stockpiles water in the event that something happens to their water source, though these stockpiles wouldn't last longer than 1 week if rationed, less if not.
Water from the dead.

5. Where do they enter/exit?
There are six ways into Krak al-Mazhar, the first five used by the Brotherhood, and the last unused.

• Narrow fissures lead through the steep sloping "hills" around the caldera, that invariably lead to guarded bridges; three of these lead into the upper levels.
• The main Gate of Mysteries opens into the heart of the caldera. This is used by slaves working the sulfur mines, entry and exit for new initiates to the Brotherhood, for military drills, and for the very rare departing/incoming caravan.
• A teleportation chamber is separated (and guarded + trapped with conditional glyph of warding) apart from the rest of the citadel, on the caldera's ridge outside the forbiddance spell.
• A two-way portal to the Plane of Fire is used for welcoming efreet ambassadors/messengers and sending out initiates / exploration parties.
• The Bonfire owns a golden mirror which he can use to open a temporary gate which he can also return through.
• Lava tubes used by salt worms (remorhaz) and sand worms (purple worms) trace their way under the fortress; they are kept at bay by the narrowness of the passages and by magical brass gongs that create a sound the worms dislike.

[/SBLOCK]

Then I assembled my list of potential Inhabitants for the dungeon. I revised this just recently, and think it's looking like a pretty fun assortment of bad guys. Might add a few more baseline monsters from MM if they make sense for certain areas, but generally when presenting monsters the PCs may already be familiar with by 15th-16th level (e.g. I avoided cultists ), I am trying to put a different spin on them. Like LN archivist mummies kept alive by The Bonfire for the glimmers of wisdom/lore he manages to glean from their cryptic raspy prattling.

[SBLOCK=List of Inhabitants]
New Monsters
The Bonfire CR ?
Tasked Genie, Guardian CR 12
Tasked Genie, Slayer CR 11
Elemental Monolith, Fire CR 11
Immolith CR 9
Angel, Asuras CR 8
Agha of the Imperishable CR 6
Cinderhaunt CR 6
Dune Stalker CR 6
Priest of Kossuth CR 6
Shig’harakhi CR 6
Skeleton, Blazing CR 6
Disciple of the Salamander CR 5
Flamedeath Fedayeen CR 4
Genie, Janni CR 4
Flame Horror CR 2
Mamluk of the Imperishable CR 2

Monster Manual variants
Cornugon (horned devil) CR 12
Pyrohydra (hydra) CR 11
Black Flame Zealot (asssassin) CR 9
Desert Terror (bulette) CR 8
Elder Flameskull (flameskull) CR 5
Hidden Fire Elemental (elemental) CR 5
Fire Scorpion (giant scorpion) CR 4
Kada, Dark Reflection (shadow demon) CR ?
Crypt Servant (wight) CR 3
Killer Mimic (mimic) CR ?

Monster Manual
Iron Golem CR 16
Purple Worm CR 15
Remorhaz CR 11
Mummy CR 3
[/SBLOCK]

And I have a work-in-progress list of potential Areas that keeps growing bit by bit. 28 distinct areas so far, with a few repeated frequent areas. Basic layout is around the Great Garden which operates like a courtyard linking various areas (a courtyard that happens to be trapped with a permanent maze-like effect for the uninitiated). I've also started working on logical area adjacencies, like placing the Sacred Ruins, Tombs, Glassteel Cavern, and Dungeon on a lower level together.

[SBLOCK=Areas]
Numbered Areas (28)
The Caldera
Alchemy Lab
Barracks, Flamedeath
Barracks, Imperishable Mamluks
Bridge of the Asuras
Council Chamber
Crematorium
Dungeon
Gate of Mysteries
Glassteel Cavern
Great Garden
Infernal Hall
Insect Farm
Initiation Chamber
Kitchens
Library
Portal of Fire
Quarters, Shig’harakh
Quarters, Slave
Sacred Ruins
Shrine to Kossuth
Summoning Chamber
Teleportation Tower
Tombs
Tower of the Bonfire (with sub-areas like Bedchamber, Phoenix Egg Chamber, Wizard's Study, etc.)
Training Grounds
Treasure Vault
Water Oubliette

Frequent Encounter Areas
A. Armory
B. Bridge
C. Conjuring Trap
F. Fumarole
G. Glyph of warding
H. Holy Slayer Guard Post
L. Arcane Locked Barrier
M. Mamluk Guard Post
O. Office: list of supplies, reports from patrols, register of visitors, etc.
S. Storage: smithies, barracks, stables, food stores, trash disposal
T. Guard Tower
P. Sulfur Pool
W. Well/Spring
WI. Illusory Wall
WF. Wall of Fire[/SBLOCK]

And now I'm trying to figure out my next step. I'm very tempted to start mapping, but I am remembering [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION]'s advice about how we think about gaming being perhaps more important than the rules/specifics themselves, and I think that applies in a way to dungeon design too. Maybe I can start at the beginning (from the players' perspective) now...

How do we learn about this dungeon? And how do we get there?

I have a couple NPCs/scenarios that can pass on information about the dungeon to the PCs, though I'm guessing that will be woven into the ongoing campaign organically as the PCs zero in on the Brotherhood's center of operations. This could be their own motivation to investigate the pogrom of mages being perpetrated by the Brotherhood, it could be a campaign of terror keeping a ruler under the Brotherhood's thumb, or something else I haven't thought of yet.

How do we get there? That has a couple answers, depending on what information the PCs uncover, but I'm going to go with the barebones simplest: An overland journey through the Great Anvil, a practically rainless hostile desert wracked by sandstorms and haunted by monsters, ruins of forgotten civilizations, and dark magic. Could I write for a travel journal or what? I'm estimating a roughly 240 mile journey (10 days on camelback at a normal pace)...might use random encounters...might just have 4-6 prepared encounters to run as I see fit. OK, details!

[SECTION]Encounters in the Great Anvil
Environment. Water is incredibly scarce and rain comes only once or twice a year. The foraging DC for the Great Anvil is 25 (see DMG p. 111). Temperatures during the day soar over 130° F (54° C), while at night they plummet to below freezing. Sandstorms wrack the Great Anvil almost weekly. Ruins litter the desert, including open-air strongholds once inhabitated by desert giants, tombs dating back to the time of Al-Anwahar (the ancient civilization from which Krak al-Mazhar was constructed), and secret vaults of Brotherhood mages.
Inhabitants. Beasts inhabiting the Great Anvil include giant fire beetles, giant vultures, swarms of insects, vultures, and perhaps a jackal or sand cat at the fringes. Travelers besides the janni* tribes and Brotherhood’s caravans are unheard of. Monsters include desert terrors (variant bulettes; see p.#), fire scorpions (variant giant scorpions; see p.#), giant mason wasps (good-aligned sentient giant wasps), hatori (giant crocodiles that burrow in the dunes), lesser ghuls (variant ghouls and ghasts; see p. #) and great ghuls*, sand worms (purple worms), salt worms (remorhaz), and man-scorpions called tlincalli (see Volo's Guide to Monsters).[/SECTION]

OK, if I wanted to create a random encounter table I have enough to go on there.

Instead, I'm going to focus on about 5 encounters during their journey. These encounters are meant to build suspense, provide clues and NPCs to interact with, and reinforce the themes of the adventure. They're meant to get the players into the dungeon's mindset and foreshadow things to come.

The five encounters I'm brainstorming are:

1. A Bottled Curse. The Bonfire has unleashed several powerful curses upon the Great Anvil, where the dark magic hungers for victims. In this case, the curse appears as a bottle amidst the remains of dead adventurers where some minor magic items (well, relative to most high-level games) can be recovered. The curse is a bit complicated but impacts their water supply, fouling decanters of endless water and making create food and water only produce 3 lbs food and 2 lbs water (enough for 1 humanoid). Need to think of ways so that remove curse doesn't solve everything easily...maybe a lingering curse upon all creatures drinking from the bottle and all water sources that were in its presence...so you'd need a whole LOT of remove curse spells to clear the curse?
2. Call of the Asuras. The asuras Isheae appears from the PCs' campfire/light source, and beseeches their help recovering her divine flame which she invested in the first of the men to assume The Bonfire's mantle and has passed down through their line. However, the dungeon is warded by forbiddance preventing celestials from entering. Might like to add a twist here, but uncertain what...?
3. Jann of the Haunted Lands. Nomadic wild desert genies insist on having the PCs as guests at a tent feast filled with dangerous foods. How gracious and cunning the PCs are will determine how much useful lore about the Brotherhood the janni relate to them, versus how many exaggerated myths they spread.
4. Salt Worm Dunes. Keen eyes can alert the PCs to the danger of a remorhaz and its young burrowed waiting for prey. However tricking the remorhaz will allow PCs to recover a remorhaz egg (useful for trading to Brotherhood mages), and killing them will allow harvesting of thrym gland (also useful for trading with Brotherhood).
5. Walkers in the Sand. A nasty sandstorm strikes, threatening to separate the party and cause them to get lost (in this high-level context "get lost" translates to spend 6 more hours in desert allowing DM to throw another encounter at party or utilize another of The Bonfire's curses). During the storm, lesser ghuls attempt to lure the PCs apart and ambush them one at a time.

 

[Imaculata]

Theming, setting and looks

The first step in my dungeon creation process, is to pick a theme or setting, and stick with it. A strong theme and/or setting allows for interesting combat encounters and obstacles, and also exciting visuals and story telling.

So the first thing you should always ask yourself is, what does the dungeon look like on the outside, and on the inside? What sort of rooms might one expect in such a location?

Spaces

The next step is to place these rooms on a map, and connect them in such a way that they create an interesting maze-like structure. I tend to favor having branching paths, but not too many. I like the idea of giving my players choices in how they tackle the dungeon, rather than having this linear slog through this maze.

Don't forget to utilize multiple floors, height differences, swimming sections and climbing sections. The players have an elaborate repertoire of skills that allow them to navigate your dungeon in a multitude of ways.

Puzzles

Puzzles are of course an interesting addition to any dungeon. But you want to make sure that the puzzle is not too convoluted. And if you have any doubts whether your players will be able to solve it, then maybe make it not mandatory, and not take too long? Puzzles are also a great excuse for a little backtracking, and to have players explore every corner of your dungeon just to acquire that key item that they need to access another area.

Combat

When designing combat encounters, don't forget to make the spaces in which your players fight, interesting. Add height differences, hazards, and objects that the players could use to their advantage. Maybe there are alternate ways for the players to defeat their opponents, other than a straight up battle? Maybe there is a way for the players to sneak up on their opponents via some secret path?

Secrets

I try to include at least one secret passage or treasure in every dungeon I design. I know my players like searching for secrets, so I don't want to disappoint them. But secrets are never mandatory, and I don't feel obligated as a DM to lead my players to them.

The art of removal

In my experience, it is often better to leave stuff out, then to cram your dungeon full of things that your players may not end up seeing at all. Make sure that the dungeon does not outstay its welcome. It doesn't have to be a 12 floor maze of epic proportions. Sometimes removing elements makes the overall experience a lot better. Does the dungeon really need a west wing, if its just going to be full of filler? Maybe just have that wing be collapsed, and hint that there was a larger complex once. The same for all those pointless dead ends, get rid of them. What seems fun on paper, may not always be as enjoyable for players during an actual session. Fill your dungeon with meaningful content, and get rid of any rooms or corridors that feel like filler. Condense the excitement, by having every room in your dungeon have meaning and purpose.

Surprises

Don't forget to add some unexpected things in your dungeon. Sometimes the corridor that looks like a trap, really isn't. Sometimes the floor that seems safe, suddenly collapses and drops your players down to a lower floor. Are those waterfalls merely for decoration, or are there enemies with ranged weapons hiding behind them? And is it really safe to wade through that murky waist-high water, when you don't know what is hiding underneath the surface?

When is the dungeon over?

Always think of a logical conclusion to your dungeon. Usually the dungeon is considered complete once the players reach their goal, or defeat some kind of boss. Bosses aren't mandatory, but you want to think about a satisfying and logical conclusion to the dungeon.

 

[Quickleaf]

The art of removal

In my experience, it is often better to leave stuff out, then to cram your dungeon full of things that your players may not end up seeing at all. Make sure that the dungeon does not outstay its welcome. It doesn't have to be a 12 floor maze of epic proportions. Sometimes removing elements makes the overall experience a lot better. Does the dungeon really need a west wing, if its just going to be full of filler? Maybe just have that wing be collapsed, and hint that there was a larger complex once. The same for all those pointless dead ends, get rid of them. What seems fun on paper, may not always be as enjoyable for players during an actual session. Fill your dungeon with meaningful content, and get rid of any rooms or corridors that feel like filler. Condense the excitement, by having every room in your dungeon have meaning and purpose.

What a great insight

I totally agree. But I think in actual practice – in the process of designing a dungeon – that there can be a fuzzy boundary between "filler" and "meaningful content."

For example, having an otyugh eating the waste of the dungeon inhabitants certainly answers a common sense question, perhaps providing for increased verisimilitude / a secret route for clever players to explore / a monster for the actor-type players to make a deal with. OTOH, the otyugh is a dungeon cliche, doesn't really contribute towards any sense of final conflict/climax, and doesn't involve a great deal of creative design. Is the otyugh in the dung heap "filler" or "meaningful content"? I've found that when you approach that fuzzy boundary, these sorts of questions are generally answered by the players of a particular group rather than the DM.

I also wonder about empty rooms.

Many designers such as Greg Bilsland advocate including empty rooms. Not necessarily to the extent of older editions, where you might have nearly half the rooms empty and a waste of time. But empty rooms can reinforce the dungeon as not a madhouse of action & secrets, but a living breathing space with its own internal logic. Also, empty rooms can...

• provide needed breakpoints for the players (time to strategize, go to the bathroom, crack jokes, shake off a tense encounter)
• build tension/suspense with clues and foreshadowing
• serve as spill-over spaces for moving combat encounters
• serve as ambush points for monster patrols
• provide opportunities for DMs to scale the dungeon to their particular party (e.g. making it harder by putting traps/tricks in empty rooms, or making it easier by having certain empty rooms be safe resting places).

What I'm curious about is how does the design principle of get rid of any rooms or passages that feel like filler interact with include empty rooms in your dungeon?

 

[Imaculata]

I totally agree. But I think in actual practice – in the process of designing a dungeon – that there can be a fuzzy boundary between "filler" and "meaningful content."

I completely agree.

empty rooms can...

• provide needed breakpoints for the players (time to strategize, go to the bathroom, crack jokes, shake off a tense encounter)
• build tension/suspense with clues and foreshadowing
• serve as spill-over spaces for moving combat encounters
• serve as ambush points for monster patrols
• provide opportunities for DMs to scale the dungeon to their particular party (e.g. making it harder by putting traps/tricks in empty rooms, or making it easier by having certain empty rooms be safe resting places).

I think all of those are perfectly sound reasons why an empty room might still be meaningful.

-Maybe you want to give your players a room to retreat to?
-Maybe you want to just establish a bit of mood with the empty room?
-Maybe the empty room builds up suspense?
-Maybe the empty room may end up not being empty at a later point?

What I'm curious about is how does the design principle of get rid of any rooms or passages that feel like filler interact with include empty rooms in your dungeon?

To me it is always a question of 'what am I trying to accomplish?' If I want my two branching paths to carry some weight, then maybe I should leave out the three additional paths next to them, because it might diminish that experience?

Maybe I want to include an empty room, because it serves as a sort of hub, or entrance? A location that feels safe, that the players can retreat to? (I'm reminded here of the main hallway from resident evil 1).

I often have empty rooms in my dungeons, when there are multiple routes to explore. One could argue that this makes them not empty at all, since they serve to present the players with a choice.

Maybe the room still serves a narrative purpose? The room may be empty of monsters, but is it completely empty of furniture too? If its not, then maybe that can be its purpose.

Maybe the chamber before the cave where the dragon sleeps, is an empty room filled with bones. A warning to the players, and a means of building suspense.

But what I don't want, is for my players to wander into a room or corridor, and there's literally nothing there. Like its literally just there to fill out the map. And sometimes the lay out of a dungeon becomes more interesting, when you decide that one of the corridors has collapsed.

To give an example, the Tomb of the Pirate Queens, from my 3rd edition pirate campaign:



I've highlighted some details with brightly colored labels. First of all, the theme of this dungeon is water. Specifically, water currents. The players are constantly at risk of losing their footing, or pushing upwards against a strong current. The white arrows indicate the direction of the water currents.

Immediately from the entrance at the bottom, you can see that it is a mostly empty room, that branches off into three directions. But one of those directions is blocked by a heavy door, which can only be opened with a lever in the room to the left. Conveniently, this is also where the clue to the big puzzle is located. There is also an ambush here, and the players will have to fight. They may discover a secret passage here, or they might not.

If they go right and then up instead, they'll eventually encounter the puzzle at the top right, for which they may or may not have encountered the clue. They'll also need to fight. In this area of the dungeon, a lot of rooms are flooded, and the water current is a real problem.

In the center of the dungeon is the hub. It is a massive chamber with balconies on either side. But access to the balcony on the right is blocked by a collapsed ceiling. Resourceful players will be able to make their way up there anyway. Either by taking the long way around, or by climbing, or by using magic. This chamber is called the map room. It has an interesting lay out, a large door that the players cannot open yet, and a map drawn on the ceiling (which is important to the plot, not to the dungeon). In a small side room is a broken wheel that should open the giant double doors to the Hall of Legends, but its broken now, so the players will have to find another way inside.

To the left of the map room is a very large room, designed to present an intense battle that makes full use of water and height differences. The players will want to stay high and dry, while they are being assaulted by threats that rise from the water and march up the stairs. Again, the same secret passage can be discovered here, which gives access to a wheel to open the flood gate. This eventually leads the players to their goal, the Hall of Legends.

In the top right is an interesting and optional section, leading up to the Hall of Dragons. There's a puzzle here, and some jump checks across a collapsed bridge, before the players can access this optional goal. The players can also reach the Hall of Dragons by swimming through flooded rooms in the bottom right, but this is made difficult due to the strong current, and thus most players will choose not to do this.

As you can probably tell, this dungeon is small in size, and has plenty of rooms and corridors that are empty of monsters. But I tried to have multiple paths, and make every path have a unique lay out and flavor. I thought about what the dungeon may have looked like when it was initially constructed, and then collapsed various tunnels to make the lay out more exciting to explore.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6801286]Imaculata[/MENTION] Thanks for taking the time to explain your design thinking – that's exactly the sort of stuff I was hoping to engender discussion of. Great map design too!

Actually, in your layout I didn't see many empty rooms, just the one at the beginning. I guess I think of "empty room" as meaning "room with nothing for the players to interact with that's meaningful to the overall adventure/campaign." So, traps/tricks, monsters, puzzles, and interaction encounters definitely fill a room. But so can a lot of the exploration stuff you've included like your levers/wheels and the campaign-relevant map; for example, maybe a player casts an unseen servant or similar spell to wait by a lever until he/she gives the command so they can test out gates in real-time rather than backtracking? That's a meaningful choice.

And maybe that's hinting at some principles of dungeon design?

[SECTION]1. Use the first room as a threshold to build suspense, which may or may not mean it's empty, but any built-in action here should be softer/lesser than that found in the rest of the dungeon. Anything you put in this room, keep it simple to just one thing.

2. Fill rooms in a variety of ways to allow for good pacing to emerge through play.

Maybe?[/SECTION]

The only question I have about your dungeon are the three blocked off water-filled rooms to the east. There are no labels on your map, but since it looks hard to access I'd assume you'd either want to put a treasure/secret here or use passing through the rooms to build tension to some hidden monster/threat?

-----

Now, that idea of the first room being less intense / emptier than subsequent rooms is great in a dungeon with one entry/egress. What about when there are several possible entry points?

This is very work-in-progress, but the arrows indicate possible entry points...

None of these really strikes me as an "empty" space, and some definitely aren't simple thresholds...

Bridge of the Asuras. Definitely has a guardian & some sort of test meant to insure only Brotherhood members use it.
Gate of Mysteries. Definitely has two guardians. Also is used regularly by slave mining labor & mamluks doing drills/patrols, as well as by new initiates being welcomed and the rare caravan.
Glassteel Cavern. Actively mined for obsidian, with magical brass gongs protecting from incursions from worms below.
Infernal Hall. So much happening here, as it is the Bonfire's (BBEG) throne room / audience hall with bodyguards, pets, an artifact throne, and the golden mirror used to scry/gate.
Portal of Fire. Definitely has guardians, but also used for initiation rituals sending initiates out, exploration parties, and receiving efreeti ambassadors.
Teleportation Circle. Definitely is spell-trapped/warded. May have other defensive measures.

 

[Imaculata]

Actually, in your layout I didn't see many empty rooms, just the one at the beginning. I guess I think of "empty room" as meaning "room with nothing for the players to interact with that's meaningful to the overall adventure/campaign." So, traps/tricks, monsters, puzzles, and interaction encounters definitely fill a room.

Yes, I try to at least have something for the players to interact with in every passage and room. So with most of my dungeons, even if the players encounter just a boring corridor, I try to make the corridor itself not boring. Just by the architecture alone you can transform a boring tunnel, into a space that engages the players on some level.

For example, the corridor directly to the right of the entrance of the Tomb of the Pirate Queens. There's not really anything in this corridor. But I decided to have a water canal flow through the corridor, with some staircases, a little bridge, and a tomb on the south side. I also added multiple branching paths here, each of which is notably different. So with a few little tweaks you can turn a boring corridor into something interesting.

But so can a lot of the exploration stuff you've included like your levers/wheels and the campaign-relevant map; for example, maybe a player casts an unseen servant or similar spell to wait by a lever until he/she gives the command so they can test out gates in real-time rather than backtracking? That's a meaningful choice.

This is a good example btw of the sort of interaction I try to encourage in my dungeons. There are obstacles that follow basic logical rules, and the players can interact with that in any way they please. While most of the closed doors have a lever to open them, nothing is stopping the players from attempting to open the doors with a Knock spell, or with sheer strength. And indeed an Unseen Servant could be used to trigger a mechanism remotely. The dungeon does not break the moment the players try to think creatively to overcome the obstacles. And yes, even on a small scale I think this gives the spaces purpose.

And maybe that's hinting at some principles of dungeon design?

Indeed.

2. Fill rooms in a variety of ways to allow for good pacing to emerge through play.

This I think is a good philosophy. "Fills rooms in a variety of ways". Not every room or corridor needs to be filled with monsters, traps, treasures or puzzles. Sometimes height differences, canals, bridges and branching paths are enough to make the space not-boring.

The only question I have about your dungeon are the three blocked off water-filled rooms to the east. There are no labels on your map, but since it looks hard to access I'd assume you'd either want to put a treasure/secret here or use passing through the rooms to build tension to some hidden monster/threat?

Indeed. The idea was that the tombs in these rooms contained valuable treasure, plus they provided a means for the players to access the Hall of Dragons without solving the puzzle. Just by making these rooms completely filled with water, they offer a challenge. The players were afraid to enter these rooms, because their guns would get wet, plus they would need to hold their breath. Underwater sections are often intimidating to players. The fact that the players can choose to go around this obstacle (and it not being mandatory) gives the players a feeling of agency in my opinion. And I like to weave this feeling of agency throughout each dungeon.

Now, that idea of the first room being less intense / emptier than subsequent rooms is great in a dungeon with one entry/egress. What about when there are several possible entry points?

I'm a big fan of making entrances to dungeons a peaceful moment, allowing players to take in their surroundings. This is one of the reasons why entrances in my dungeon often start with a branching path as well. This allows the players to think about where they want to go next, without being under any pressure.

But when your dungeon has multiple entrances, I think there is some merit in changing this up a bit, to give the players a reason why they might favor one entrance over the other. Then again, I also think I would choose to scrap several of those entrances, and just focus on a few. Three is the magic number.

Bridge of the Asuras. Definitely has a guardian & some sort of test meant to insure only Brotherhood members use it.
Gate of Mysteries. Definitely has two guardians. Also is used regularly by slave mining labor & mamluks doing drills/patrols, as well as by new initiates being welcomed and the rare caravan.
Glassteel Cavern. Actively mined for obsidian, with magical brass gongs protecting from incursions from worms below.
Infernal Hall. So much happening here, as it is the Bonfire's (BBEG) throne room / audience hall with bodyguards, pets, an artifact throne, and the golden mirror used to scry/gate.
Portal of Fire. Definitely has guardians, but also used for initiation rituals sending initiates out, exploration parties, and receiving efreeti ambassadors.
Teleportation Circle. Definitely is spell-trapped/warded. May have other defensive measures.

I think it can be very exciting to have one entrance be guarded, while another might not be. So the reason the players might choose to take another entrance, is because it doesn't look guarded. But maybe it poses other challenges? Maybe the entrance that looks unguarded, actually is a trap, or a false entrance? Maybe an entrance that looks guarded, also looks like it has an underwater point of entry that would allow the players to pass the guards unnoticed?

This goes back to my example of the flooded tombs. This route might offer an easier route to the Hall of Dragons, but is the risk of drowning worth it? This is for the players to decide, and when you give your players such very clearly different options, it gives them a strong feeling of agency.

Take for example the entrance to the Tomb of the Pirate Queens. There are three paths that the players can take, and each one is notably different.

There's a heavy door, that requires a lever, or some other solution, to open. The players do not know what's behind it, nor do they know where the lever is that opens it and thus are naturally cautious. They could waste a Knock spell on it, but they will probably explore other paths first.

There's a corridor to the left, which looks like it leads to a large room that is a dead end, and the water seems to flow here too. Players are often drawn to exploring an obvious dead end first, if it seems that there might be something interesting there as well. Of course they do not know there's an ambush here.

Lastly, there is the corridor to the east, which leads to multiple branching paths, and the water is coming from this direction. Another reason why the players might want to explore this later. It looks dangerous, and it looks like it leads to more tunnels (even though two of those tunnels basically lead to the same room). There's no monsters here, but the corridor looks like it might be a perfect spot for a battle. It's great when a dungeon area plays with the expectations of the players.

So each path is visually and thematically very different, and also features different game play. This gives the players something to work with. If all they see is three identical choices, that is not much of a choice at all. Likewise, if all entrances are guarded, that's not much of a choice. But make them all different, and the players are given agency.

And in the case of the Tomb of the Pirate Queens, I designed the choices in such a way that the players are most likely to go left first (where they find a clue to the puzzle, and a means of opening the heavy doors), and then probably north, now that the doors are open and they can see what's inside. The players are most likely to leave the eastern section of the dungeon till last. The collapsed roof in the map room also makes the eastern balcony less easily accessible, thus gently steering the players to the west first. And yes, this is by design. The players feel like they have agency, but they'll probably go through the dungeon in exactly the order as I intended.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm a big fan of making entrances to dungeons a peaceful moment, allowing players to take in their surroundings. This is one of the reasons why entrances in my dungeon often start with a branching path as well. This allows the players to think about where they want to go next, without being under any pressure.

But when your dungeon has multiple entrances, I think there is some merit in changing this up a bit, to give the players a reason why they might favor one entrance over the other. Then again, I also think I would choose to scrap several of those entrances, and just focus on a few. Three is the magic number.

So each path is visually and thematically very different, and also features different game play. This gives the players something to work with. If all they see is three identical choices, that is not much of a choice at all. Likewise, if all entrances are guarded, that's not much of a choice. But make them all different, and the players are given agency.

Great point. I'm realizing I need to differentiate the possible approaches I have more. I have listed all 6, but it's possible that in play the party might only learn about a few of them. I'll try to elucidate more...

Bridge of the Asuras. PCs can learn about this approach from the asuras Isheae, and she cautions that those who seek to cross the bridge will be tested with a riddle by a speaking wall of indigo flame. What she does not know is there is another test at the far end of the bridge as well. This is the approach for "riddlers/puzzle-solvers" who want to bypass the citadel's defenses in a fairytale kind of way that requires solving challenging riddles/puzzles.

Gate of Mysteries. This is the obvious entrance that the PCs automatically know about. Guarded by 2 bound horned devils. Requires stealth/undercover to get close without incident, but also can be passed in a variety of ways: disguise as slaves/mamluks, request the "bond of salt" from The Bonfire, pretend to be merchant caravan with something Brotherhood wants, leverage the internal politics of the Brotherhood to convince horned devils to let them pass, launch a full-scale assault, etc. This approach can accommodate a lot of player styles.

Glassteel Cavern / Lava Tunnels. PCs can learn about this approach from the janni sheikh Adin Nusir if they are courteous guests at his feast of poisonous foods, and think to ask; he can show them where the surface entrance into the tunnels is. Alternately, they can find an entrance if they explore the fumarole at the western fissure through the caldera. This is the approach for "dungeon crawlers/hack'n'slashers" who want to evade/fight/trick purple worms & remorhazes and come up on Krak al-Mazhar from below.

Infernal Hall. The PCs might learn about this approach (the powers of The Bonfire's golden mirror from past encounters with the Brotherhood or by doing research), though actually orchestrating a scenario where they can ride back through a gate opened by The Bonfire would require a great deal of cunning. This is the approach for "instigators/kick-in-the-door" types who want to surprise the villains, bypass all the traps, go straight to the end (or so they think), nab the loot, and screw with the dungeon design.

Portal of Fire. The PCs might learn about this approach from an efreeti noble they manage to sway to their cause, or possibly from the Brotherhood's Citadel of the Illuminated on the Plane of Fire. There are guardians here (not sure what/who yet?), but instead of being muscle like the horned devils at the Gate of Mysteries, they're more there for a ritual / ambassadorial role to send off initiates on their "firewalk" on the Plane of Fire or welcome efreeti ambassadors with all the pomp and circumstance they expect. So less heavily guarded, but more signs/countersigns & bribery/efreeti etiquette would be involved. This is the approach for "actors/role-players" who want to talk their way past the citadel's defenses.

Teleportation Circle. The PCs might learn about this approach by interrogating a captured Brotherhood mage, ransacking notes of mages at various Brotherhood strongholds/hideouts, or finding and speaking with an exiled member of the Brotherhood. It is spell-trapped/warded, and guards may be summoned, but it cuts out the need for a grueling desert journey and opens up lots of strategic options like claiming an adjoining watchtower or taking over the summoning chamber before defenses are put in place. This is the approach for "strategists/wizards" who like to solve problems with magic and careful planning.

And in the case of the Tomb of the Pirate Queens, I designed the choices in such a way that the players are most likely to go left first (where they find a clue to the puzzle, and a means of opening the heavy doors), and then probably north, now that the doors are open and they can see what's inside. The players are most likely to leave the eastern section of the dungeon till last. The collapsed roof in the map room also makes the eastern balcony less easily accessible, thus gently steering the players to the west first. And yes, this is by design. The players feel like they have agency, but they'll probably go through the dungeon in exactly the order as I intended.

Yeah, I really appreciated that about your design of the Tomb of the Pirate Queens. There's a clear "going with the flow" path, that also can adapt to player ideas as they come up. For what I understand you were using that dungeon for, that makes a lot of sense and really works tightly within your theme.

I think what I'm attempting may be a bit more complex in that I'm trying to present Krak al-Mazhar in a way that accommodates multiple approaches (not only in the "which path do we take" but also in the greater strategic sense) and doesn't have an implicit design of "this is the best way to go"/"this is the path the adventure or DM intends you follow."

Oh, and I meant to ask, did you do your map in a graphics program like Photoshop / Gimp? That's what I usually end up using, and it's just such a slow process for me.

 

[Imaculata]

Yeah, I really appreciated that about your design of the Tomb of the Pirate Queens. There's a clear "going with the flow" path, that also can adapt to player ideas as they come up. For what I understand you were using that dungeon for, that makes a lot of sense and really works tightly within your theme.

I think what I'm attempting may be a bit more complex in that I'm trying to present Krak al-Mazhar in a way that accommodates multiple approaches (not only in the "which path do we take" but also in the greater strategic sense) and doesn't have an implicit design of "this is the best way to go"/"this is the path the adventure or DM intends you follow."

What you could also consider, is maybe cutting the dungeon in two. So instead of having all 6 entrances for the start of the dungeon, maybe the first three are at the start, and the other three are for the halfway point.

Oh, and I meant to ask, did you do your map in a graphics program like Photoshop / Gimp? That's what I usually end up using, and it's just such a slow process for me.

I make my maps in Photoshop, and dress them up with clipart from the internet, and with graphics from the classic board game Hero Quest. But I am able to speed up the process, by using a standard template for all my dungeons that I made myself.

I have a separate layer for all the rooms, which automatically puts a black outline around anything I draw in it. And another layer-folder with all the art. I always use the same shield at the top for the dungeon title, cause it looks cool and piraty. And I always use the same grid.

 

[Quickleaf]

What you could also consider, is maybe cutting the dungeon in two. So instead of having all 6 entrances for the start of the dungeon, maybe the first three are at the start, and the other three are for the halfway point.

That's an idea – sort of leaving 3 to be discoverable during the course of exploring the dungeon, in case the PCs decide to beat a tactical retreat or take a different approach.

I make my maps in Photoshop, and dress them up with clipart from the internet, and with graphics from the classic board game Hero Quest. But I am able to speed up the process, by using a standard template for all my dungeons that I made myself.

I have a separate layer for all the rooms, which automatically puts a black outline around anything I draw in it. And another layer-folder with all the art. I always use the same shield at the top for the dungeon title, cause it looks cool and piraty. And I always use the same grid.

Thanks. Yeah, templates are where it's at. I've never delved into making a big dungeon in all my 26 years playing and DMing – besides being a kid and filling up a piece of graph paper with nonsensical ideas just because I could – so I have no template yet. But the sorts of steps you describe in your work flow – layers, outlines/drop glows, grids – are things I'm pretty familiar with.

I've been exploring Dungeon Painter recently and it does seem to accelerate the speed of working up a dungeon map...as long as I don't try anything too fancy (which there's usually a high risk of).

Right now I'm tackling my areas that have sub-areas. These are the Great Garden and Tower of the Bonfire, which each functions as a mini-dungeon of 5-14 rooms in its own right. Here's my very work-in progress image of the Great Garden map.

I'll describe what's going on... The Great Gardens is a blend of Persian garden in a rough Charbagh style + the Forestiere Underground Gardens in Fresno, CA + whatever wild fantasy Arabian-esque I pull out of my hat.

It acts as a central hub within Krak al-Mazhar, connecting many of the areas. The ceiling of the ~120-foot diameter chamber has a powerful illusion simulating the day and night cycle of the sky in the desert above. There are three levels to the garden, which I'm still working out out the themes behind, with roughly 14 areas split among them. At the center is the Fountain of the Ghuls where a great ghul and her handmaidens (lesser ghuls) attempt to lure creatures to their doom, but can be negotiated with and may even prove helpful if their selfish desires are fulfilled; the disguised ghuls also serve to reinforce the "garden of paradise" which is used when brainwashing new fedayeen into the Flamedeath holy slayer fellowship. A guardian genie (and its copper automaton servants) is tasked with protecting the garden from thieves/intruders, but cares little for the ghuls or other creatures found within it.

The main trick to the garden is that it is under a mighty enchantment that works something like a permanent maze spell. Since there's no option to make maze permanent for even a 20th level caster, presumably this was created by plot-level magic.

Creatures that enter the garden are affected by an enchantment (unless they're immune to the charmed condition, or they speak the password before entering) and find themselves unable to see the exits. Instead the perforated lattices appear to be overgrown with plants. A character looking for an exit can spend an action to make a DC 20 Intelligence (Investigation) check. If they succeed, they perceive the nearest exit to them and can leave no problem. If they fail, they end up wandering to a random sub-area of the Great Garden in their search of the exit.

A few considerations of things players might try...

I cast true seeing / use my gem of seeing. What do you think about that? Except it's not an illusion. It's an enchantment affecting the mind.

Something is fishy here. What happens if I attack the exterior walls? Or if Bob casts fireball at it? You swing and hack, but there seems to be a never-ending amount of foliage and silk drapes, and then you stumble out of them, swinging your sword in a wild swing uncomfortably close to your friends. Bob's fireball burns the morning glories and silks to a crisp so you're now looking at a charred perforated stone lattice though you feel like you're looking in the wrong place...maybe the exit is back in the room with the poppies where you found the potion of healing? And you hear something large moving towards you through the garden passages, perhaps its guardian?

I found a way out? OK, I'll tell the others to follow me. Come on, Bob. While slipping through the silk drapes, hanging pots, and overgrown palms and myrtles you lose track of one another... What? Can I like hold his hand? Sure, you hold Bob's hand and lead him out of the garden. The air feels drier and clearer here. OK, now I'm going to go back for the others. Great! When I go back in can I see the exit? You reenter the gardens, brushing aside the silks and immediately are struck by the sweet humid smell in the air. Everything seems more vivid here. Behind you is a stone lattice with overhanging vines. You know there should be an exit here, but you can't seem to locate it. Do you want to search? Yes, crap, I got an 18. Ok, as you search you realize that maybe this burn mark is from another of your companions or someone else lost in the gardens. You swear there was something that you touched that felt like the edge of an archway leaving the garden, so you feel around... <rolls a die> ...and you come to spiral stairs leading up and down. Crap! Again?!? Yes. OK, I'm not taking the stairs this time. Can I backtrack to the fountain with the princess? Absolutely.

Screw this, everyone let's reassemble. I'm casting teleport! To our desert camp. Ok, you teleport away!