Five Level Prestige Classes?

Kemrain

First Post
What do people think of the idea of prestige classes with only 5 levles? Personally, I like how specialized it allows a character to become, even early in their career. When I make 5 level PrC's, I generally give them fairly steep requirements, often more difficult to meet without going fully down the road the class represents. In the games I play in, people often take just a few levels of a prestige class to get at an ability, or even simply to say they belong to an organization. I have yet to see people go all 10 levels of prestige.

However, I know my experiences are hardly typical, so I've decided to ask the House Rules forum (With all it's creative energy) what people think of the idea. I'm solidly for it, think it's great, but I want to hear what you have to say...

- Kemrain the Mad MultiClasser!
 

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I like the idea for classes that either specialize an existing class (or group of related classes), or give a new ability to a broad range of classes.
 

It really depends on what you want to get out of the class.

IMC, Archmage is like Heirophant -- no spellcasting progression, though every level gives +1 Caster Level when casting spells. Because the character is losing so much, the entry requirements are low -- basically, the ability to cast 7th level spells.

I also offer a 10-level Duelist variant which is intended to be available after 3rd level... the only requirements are some Feats & Skills which a level 3 Rogue (or Rogue1/Ftr2) could easily have. It's there to provide access to a style of fighting that I think is appropriate to high fantasy, but not supported well by the Core rules.

-- N
 

CRGreathouse said:
I like the idea for classes that either specialize an existing class (or group of related classes), or give a new ability to a broad range of classes.

I agree completely, and feel the 5 Level PrC fits the former exceptionally well. Without sacrificing all the utility of the core class, you can specialize in whatever your character fits best as. I feel the 10 level classes are good for instances where your character concept is based around the PrC idea, like Nifft's Duelist, or when you want a PrC that many classes could enter to gain utility. Too often I see people figure out when the earliest you could join a PrC (with what class combo) and assume that's what it was ment for. But arent there people who think that taking a 5 level PrC is cheap, as you don't give up enough for the utility you gain? No one will cry munchkin? I'm suprised no one's tried to disagree...

I'd love to see your duelist class, Nifft; got a link?

- Kemrain the Rogue 4, Fighter 2, Ranger 2, Mage 1, Monk 1, Keeper 5, Shadowhand 5... Eventually.
 


It really, really depends on the class in question. A 5-level prestige class lets you get less benefit/penalty out of certain class aspects. For example, Loremaster gives two extra skill points at each level compared to a Wizard, and gets Use Magic Device as a class skill (not as big of a deal in 3.5). So, if you were to try to make a 5-level version of the Loremaster, with the special abilities coming faster, you'd get less benefit out of this. Also, under the current rules, I think you're not supposed to have Epic progressions for 5-level PrCs. Not a big deal for most people.

On the other hand, 5-level classes are ideal for "dabbling". Take Heirophant; you can get useful spellcasting-related abilities at each level, but most people won't WANT to give up 5 levels of spellcasting power to get all of them. So, some casters might only take 1 level of it, some might take 2, and so on. If you were to make a PrC that gave the Heirophant abilities at the odd levels and "+1 to spellcasting class" at the even levels, it'd be the same for the people who wanted all of the levels, but worse for the dabblers. Also, if all the PrCs in your campaign are 5-level ones, people could take 2 or more complete PrCs before Epic levels, which could give them an unsually high number of powerful class abilities.

Then there's the "opportunity cost". A Wizard who takes 10 levels of Loremaster misses out on two bonus Feats, while if it were only a 5-level class he'd only miss one. A Ranger who took a 5-level version of Horizon Walker would still have decent spellcasting ability. That sort of thing. It makes balance a bit iffy, especially if you have a large number of PrCs available for the players.

So, for most homemade PrCs, you could make them go either way. It takes some balancing work, but it's workable. The bigger problem is the basic concept of Prestige Classes. To some people, a PrC is your ultimate career path; in discussions on these boards you'll hear people who say that no one should take more than one PrC. On the other hand, there are people who mix and match PrCs just like they would core classes. Personally, I'm somewhere in between.
IMC, each player sits down with the DM and designs his PrCs four or five levels in advance, to give him time to integrate it into the campaign and work the balance bugs out; that way, when the time comes, the class is what he wants, so he'll take all 5-10 levels. The class's prerequisites will be tweaked so that the player can meet them, but it'll never just be "okay, tell me what abilities you have and we'll make those the requirements".
However, we've also constructed a few more general 5-level "utility" PrCs. Heirophant is an example of this, but we also made a 5-level Artificer class, with minimal spellcasting gain, but lots of useful item-related abilities. No one's taken all 5 levels of it, although some people plan to eventually. It's a great class to take a level or two of, but no one thinks of themselves as an Artificer, they're a "Crystalsinger with some Artificer abilities" and so on.

The point is, each has their own niche.
 

A friend of mine made a 9 level prestige class. I think I've seen a 7 level prestige class, too. You would have thought the creators were mass murderers from the reactions they got. :p

Frankly, I think all this talk about 5 level prestige classes being "unbalanced" is just plain silly. Some classes just don't have enough going on with them to stretch it out to 10 levels. Heck, the teleportation mage (wayfinder?) is only 3.

Spend time making sure that the class has powers that will be balanced at the levels characters will get them -- and, yes, that means the min/maxed level they can be taken, 'cause that's when they *will* be taken. If the powers don't balance, up the prereqs so that the class will have to be taken later. Simple as a lobotomy. :)
 

Well, Kelmain, I agree and disagree.

I like 5 level PrC's fine. But I don't like people having levels in a ton of different classes. Having 2 classes and a PrC seems like plenty. Maybe a second PrC if they are both 5 levels. But I really don't like when players take one level here, two there, another one here, etc. It just feels like point geeking metagaming.

And yes, it is fine for some people to play that way, I just don't like it.

.
 

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