Five Nations (especially Knight Phantom)

[Bront]

Any material components involved in any of these uber spells?

 

[stonegod]

Any material components involved in any of these uber spells?

Flamebound symbol requires DF as does the pyro ability (as it is a modified turn).

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think Bront was hoping for something that, say, costs 25 gold and is expended

 

[Bront]

Yeah, if there's an expense, it could be a balancing factor.

Got books yesterday, I'll look at it tonight.

 

[Bront]

Ok, comments on the material so far...

Knight Phantom... Seems quite overpowered compaired to the Elderich Knight, to the point of I don't know why anyone would play one ever again. I'd probably be willing to approve it if the HD was droped to a D6, but my first inclination is a stong absolute No.

Dark Lantern... Not that exciting. Seems fair. I say YES with no qualms.

Cyran Avenger... the Enemy Region bugs me a bit, but I'd approve it if we droped the ability to change the region for 2 AP as a free action.

Bone Knight... Nice for an undead cleric focuser, but stiff to get into. Probably a yes.

I'll finish more tonight.

Edit: Finished more.

Silver Pyromancer... If it didn't have that stupid turning ability thing (it if was just allowing your arcane caster level add to your turning), it'd be perfectly fine. Instant fireball when turning is way too strong.

Spells:
Flamebound Symbol... um, no. Cap the damage, and the save, and maybe, but even then it's strong.

Flamebound Weapon... little strong, but not too bad. I'd allow it.

Whispering Flame... wonderful, love it, Yes.

 

[Patlin]

Knight Phantom... Seems quite overpowered compaired to the Elderich Knight, to the point of I don't know why anyone would play one ever again. I'd probably be willing to approve it if the HD was droped to a D6, but my first inclination is a stong absolute No.

The eldritch knight shouldn't be the only source of comparison. It's a very underpowered class. It also has significantly less prereqs, which is part of how these classes are balanced.

Compare an Eldritch Knight build to a Cleric. You get fewer hp, can only use light armor, lose at least two caster levels and associated spells, and gain some spell like abilities.

Compared to a psychic warrior, you get more spellcasting power but lose a ton of feats.

Rather than voting no, would you consider addin another prereq to limit the most powerfull builds, such as a minimum BAB of +6?

 

[Bront]

Compare an Eldritch Knight build to a Cleric. You get fewer hp, can only use light armor, lose at least two caster levels and associated spells, and gain some spell like abilities.

Compared to a psychic warrior, you get more spellcasting power but lose a ton of feats.

Rather than voting no, would you consider addin another prereq to limit the most powerfull builds, such as a minimum BAB of +6?

Did you mean Eldrich Knight or Knight Phantom?
The EK can't cast in Armor, the KP can.
The KP and EK both get the same BAB and saves.
The KP and EK both get the same spell casting ability
The EK gets a D6 HD, the KP gets a D8 (same as a cleric)
The EK gets a bonus fighter feat.
THe KP gets a bonus spell like ability (3rd level spell) 1/day/KP level, AND an extra ability at 4th level (A minor one admittedly), AND an ability at 7th level (better, though it has a negitive effect on friendlies as well), AND a fairly useful ability at 10th level.

All for the cost of... your free 5th level wizard feat (Still Spell) (Not a huge deal), 4 ranks in a fighter class skill (Realy not a big deal), and an RP requirement.

The mimemum BAB doesn't fix it. In fact, that potentialy forces the better build, just in an unfriendly manor (take EK till you can get into KP, you end up with a BAB of +17 and a 17th caster level, pretty nasty). In fact, I love the class, but the D8 HD makes it SO much better than the EK, it becomes a useless class. If it was a D6, I'd approve it, because I think the flavor adds something, but the D8 HD is just too much.

 

[Patlin]

Did you mean Eldrich Knight or Knight Phantom?

I meant Knight Phantom, pardon me.

What I'm saying is that the EK is too weak compared to the core classes, so that while I agree the KP is a better choice, I don't think the KP is too strong. I also think spending a feat on still spell is a bigger deal than you suggest, especially if neither Wizard nor Fighter is part of your build -- feats can get pretty tight!

 

[stonegod]

Still spell as a req is a little harsher than not having it there, especially as the KP will never use it after 1st. I'd be interested in seeing it compares to the spellsword and bladesinger, which allowed WoTC to do the EK right.

 

[drothgery]

Here's the rework my DM & I came up with for the silver pyromancer, which lost the Purge Undead ability completely...

As written, except the class abilities are as follows (new stuff in bold):

1 Pyromancer, smiting spell 1/day, bow proficiency
2 Sacred flame
3 Smiting spell 2/day, divine grace (as per paladin)
4 Persistent fire
5 Smiting spell 3/day (blinding), improved sacred flame

Also, Pyromancer levels stack with cleric levels for purposes of turning undead.