Five Suggestions to Limit Wizard Power

[eamon]

Severely limiting the ability of PCs to craft magic items would go a long way toward solving many of the caster dominance problems that seem to have plagued 3.5. In another thread, someone was talking about it being common for the wizard to be walking around with an arsenal of 20 (!!!) wands.

That poster was mistaken. I've never seen anything even remotely similar; and he was talking about low-ish levels too! Even at 15th level I've never seen people walking around with that many different types of wands (he wasn't just talking 1st level wands of CLW!). What that poster was describing would have required multiple spell casters (both arcane and divine), the full wealth by level of the entire party and then some, and a significant chunk of XP. At 12th-13th level, it would have required the wealth of an entire character and significant XP, and still require both arcane/divine casters (which incidentally both need to take multiple feats to do this, and 3e was rather feat-starved...)

The guy was just griping. There were potential problems (which a DM could avoid), but what he was describing wasn't one of them. In any case, it's just edition bashing: Nobody's suggesting making rogues quite as useless as in 3e, so what's the deal?

 

[Leatherhead]

It cost a healing surge to use in 4th. If 5th has a healing surge mechanic, I can see it costing that again as well.

Yeah, but knock was absolutely useless in 4e. 10 min cast time, not stealthy, cost gold and healing surges. You could basic attack a door off the hinges in less time with less risk. It's a prime example of overnerfing and what not to do.

 

[Incenjucar]

I've never really seen a dramatic difference in power between high level fighters and high level wizards, and I really don't recall any complaints about it in 3e till after 4e was already out and then suddenly it popped out of the woodwork online. I dunno.

Unless the DM goes out of their way to favor spellcasters, I don't see a martial/spellcaster imbalance as being present in the game to fix in the first place. The last spellcaster I played was hands down the weakest PC in the group, but damn was she fun to play (a half-faerie dragon sorcerer/wizard).

Eh...?

I barely even touched 3E and I found it rather obvious how absurdly powerful spellcasters got compared to fighters. You could certainly find ways to build weaker spellcasters, since not all spells of the same level are equal. Perhaps your forum habits did not bring you around many discussions of relative power level between classes?

--

To the OP: I don't see why you would need to take away magic item creation. Spellcasters only really have an issue with items that allow them additional spells per day. Why would you need to do more than remove rings of wizardy, wands of <insert spell>, potions of <insert spell>, and non-ritual scrolls?

 

[Bluenose]

I would add Suggestion #6:

Wizards do not get all arcane spells. Specialists get cool spells in their specialty that others do not. If you insist on being a jack of all trades, you have to accept being master of none.

I always thought the change from 1e to 2e got this wrong. In 1e you had the Magic User and the Illusionist, and while they shared some spells there were some that only the Illusionist got and others that they never got. If they'd expanded that in 2e so there were Illusionist, Evokers, Necromancers, and so on then I'd have been very pleased. As it was, there was literally no spell that an Illusionist did that a Mage couldn't do too. It would have been more work, but a small general spell list that any magician could learn, and a set of spells for each sub-type of magician, would have been much more flavourful, in keeping with the specialist priests that were included, and better balanced. And would have been a much closer match for magic in fiction too.

 

[eamon]

I barely even touched 3E and I found it rather obvious how absurdly powerful spellcasters got compared to fighters. You could certainly find ways to build weaker spellcasters, since not all spells of the same level are equal. Perhaps your forum habits did not bring you around many discussions of relative power level between classes?

A lot of it was campaign dependent. For instance, in games I ran, I included significant utility magic items, which mitigates the need for casters; outlawed natural spell (which turned druids into crazy melee machines with spells) and imposed XP costs and some other limitations for learning new spells (in particular, no mixing of splatbooks and some houseruling on splatbook spells in general). Only the Natural Spell removal is really a house-rule, and even so, it makes a big difference. Of course, the 3e DM books didn't warn you about this stuff, so...

The thing is, if a DM was a bit laid back, well, the non-casters often couldn't get those nice magic items because they couldn't make em and because for some crazy reason people don't like the corner magic-shoppe . And then it's easier for a caster to convince the DM to make him strong: he just needs to point to a particular spell and say I want to "research" that; it's a fairly direct and reasonable request with clear in-game mechanics, whereas it's a little harder for a fighter to pull a flying carpet out of thin air... Finally, there were many more rules for casters than for others, so finding an exceptionally powerful rule (i.e. spell) just happens by itself, particular if the DM defers to the player in interpreting the sometimes open-ended effects of the spell. There were lots of pointless spells too; people just didn't use em. Oh, another mitigating factor was that the real crazy stuff tended to require high-level, and 3e tended to kind of crash and burn there anyhow. So in retrospect it would seem broken, but in play most people just didn't play those levels (very much). I'd bet levels 1-10 saw much much more play than levels 11-20.

So with a bit of a gamist perspective, a DM could make 3e quite balanced, but it's easy to see where the horror stories came from. And getting high-level play balanced was a lot of work.

 

[Minigiant]

1. Reduce Spell Slots:

Not a problem if the other stuff is fixed

2. No Player Created Magic Items:

No. No cheap but powerful player created items.
The power is not that the player can create them, it is that they don't cost the PC many resources but retains the power. Instead of making items cost gold, something PCs have tons of, tie magic items to the character.

A wizard can only have self-crafted 1 scroll per level in existence.
Or
A wizard can only have self-crafted items in existence equal to 100 x his level + Wis Mod.

3. Remove Unlimited Spell Access and Learning:

I agree somewhat.

4. Additional Cost for Class Stealing Spells:

Don't make them cost more. just make them bad substitutes.

Knock gives the wizard the skill of a much lower level rogue.
Invisibility gives you the stealth of a crappy rogue.

The gun spell gives you a pistol while the real class has a rifle.
The shovel spell gives you a spoon unless you prepare it a higher slot.

For example knock gives you the a bonus to lockpicking based on the slot prepared in:


2nd: (available at level 3 for a wizard) Grants a bonus equal to a 1st level rogue
3rd: (available at level 5 for a wizard) Grants a bonus equal to a 2nd level rogue
4th: (available at level 7 for a wizard) Grants a bonus equal to a 3rd level rogue

5. Make Combat Casting Difficult:

I agree.

 

[Plane Sailing]

2. No Player Created Magic Items: A first level wizard in 3.5 got Scribe Scroll. Right away, the game designers are giving Wizards a tool to break the game. This one change essentially gave wizards access to their entire spellbook at any time for the cost of a few XP. Utility or situational spells could be scribed and access at will, further expanding the versatility of the 3.5 wizard. Likewise, player created wands contribute to this problem.

4. Additional Cost for Class Stealing Spells: Invisibility and Knock have become iconic spells for the Wizard and should not be removed from the game. However, these spells directly conflict with key abilities of the Rogue. These spells should have some additional cost to them. Perhaps requiring two spell slots, a heavy time penalty, or the use of hit points. Regardless, spells that step into another class's niche need to have some additional cost to casting them.

4 is only an issue if 2 exists. Without scribe scroll or wands of utility spells, the ability for a wizard to use one of his precious spells to prepare knock or invisibility is fine, it has no impact on the rogue. (presumably you would also want to remove traditional magic items like chime of opening too?)

 

[Plane Sailing]

Don't make them cost more. just make them bad substitutes.

Knock gives the wizard the skill of a much lower level rogue.
Invisibility gives you the stealth of a crappy rogue.

I think this is an awful solution. What if there is a door locked from the inside? What if the rogue can't pick this lock? What if the party doesn't have a rogue? What if the rogue needs to sneak across open space in broad daylight and needs that invisibility?

Making them bad substitutes is worse than useless.

 

[Bluenose]

I think this is an awful solution. What if there is a door locked from the inside? What if the rogue can't pick this lock? What if the party doesn't have a rogue? What if the rogue needs to sneak across open space in broad daylight and needs that invisibility?

Making them bad substitutes is worse than useless.

You want it open now, then you go with the quick and dirty version of the spell that sometimes doesn't work. You want it open regardless of how long it takes, you perform the ritual that will get it open even if it's slow and uses up precious components.

 

[Minigiant]

I think this is an awful solution. What if there is a door locked from the inside? What if the rogue can't pick this lock? What if the party doesn't have a rogue? What if the rogue needs to sneak across open space in broad daylight and needs that invisibility?

Making them bad substitutes is worse than useless.

If you want your wizard to replace a missing rogue, then make it cost more.

Cast level 2 Knock for +5 Open locks for ability checks to open lock (compared to the Rogue of your level's +10)
Then
Cast level 2 Fox's Cunning for +4 Int checks
Then
Lean on your 16 Intelligence

Now your wizard is a decent rogue.

OR

Cast level 2 Bull's Strength
Then
Cast Level 2 Enlarge Person to boost your unarmed damage
Then
Then kick the door

OR

Cast Wood to Paper on the door
Then
Cast Scorching Ray on the door
Then
Watch the FIYAH!

But the base knock spell make you into an inferior rogue.