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Personally I hope they just stick with the 1e solution here. it is a classic magic power, when its use is limited by spell slots there is no problem.
Five Suggestions to Limit Wizard Power
- Thread starter Alaxk Knight of Galt
- Start date
Doug McCrae
Legend
3e sleep was significantly nerfed from earlier editions. 4HD instead of about 10 in 1e. The 1 round casting time instead of a standard action is the real killer though, because it means there's a round of waiting before the spell goes off. Color spray is a lot better.
When I played a wizard in 3.5, I found ray of enfeeblement to be my most powerful 1st level spell as our party's battles were often against a single tough melee monster. In fact it was OP in that game, as ray doesn't allow a save. But that's the thing about the 'big three' casters, they're incredibly flexible. There were so many spells by 3e, the flexibility itself was a problem, allowing the caster players to choose the most potent from a very long list.
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Two slots for knock. uh...
How about 1 slot for knock and we leave it as is in 3e, because the only place knock ever created a problem was an internet forum or a badly DM'd game. The advantage a rogue has is he can pick locks all day long, he doesnt have to substitute a different power, use it up, and then find out that there arent any secret doors in this adventure. Knocks other main disadvantage is that if the door has multiple locks (most do) the wizard has to cast it multiple times. Not sure why you mention invisibility, apparently in a typical campaign the wizard is memorizing unlimited knock spells and so has no room for invisibility in its second level spells.
While were at it, lets make bashing a door cause 20 damage of HP to the fighter, we wouldnt want the fighter to be able to do that all day and overshadow the rogue right.
How about 1 slot for knock and we leave it as is in 3e, because the only place knock ever created a problem was an internet forum or a badly DM'd game. The advantage a rogue has is he can pick locks all day long, he doesnt have to substitute a different power, use it up, and then find out that there arent any secret doors in this adventure. Knocks other main disadvantage is that if the door has multiple locks (most do) the wizard has to cast it multiple times. Not sure why you mention invisibility, apparently in a typical campaign the wizard is memorizing unlimited knock spells and so has no room for invisibility in its second level spells.
While were at it, lets make bashing a door cause 20 damage of HP to the fighter, we wouldnt want the fighter to be able to do that all day and overshadow the rogue right.
Magic item creation is fine as a module. I always liked doing it by whim better then the player telling ME what he could make.
The real problem was scribe scroll and wand and the rules enabling players to make buckets of extra spell items. That was houseruled immediately out of my campaign, and I see it as potentially game breaking if the DM sleeps a lot during gameplay. Still it was annoying to tell players "no you can't make another 10 scrolls" so I would definetely be pro removing this from the game (or at least the core).
The real problem was scribe scroll and wand and the rules enabling players to make buckets of extra spell items. That was houseruled immediately out of my campaign, and I see it as potentially game breaking if the DM sleeps a lot during gameplay. Still it was annoying to tell players "no you can't make another 10 scrolls" so I would definetely be pro removing this from the game (or at least the core).
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Alaxk Knight of Galt
First Post
I agree. If you got rid of scribe scroll / make wand or made knock / invisibility cost extra, you have gone a long way to fixing the problem. You probably don't need both.
In fact, while I think all five suggestions could be implemented and leave a very powerful wizard, I don't think it's necessary to implement all of them. Here was what each one was intended to address.
1. Reduce Spell Slots: This is to keep a wizard for stocking up on spells to counter every contingency. A wizard should be about planning, but that planning should also be a weakness when something unexpected is encounter. By reducing the spell slots, you leave the wizard powerful if well prepared but weak to surprises and unexpected situation (or forced into using their existing spells in unusual or creative ways).
2. No Player Created Magic Items: Simply put, this was to stop wizards from having a virtually infinite spell list. Wands and Scrolls allowed for a wizard to be able to cast his entire spell book at a whim. Rarely used spells were placed on scrolls, commonly used spells placed into wands. This has to be eliminated or vastly reigned.
The problem isn't player made items, it's the cost to use such player made items.
I see solutions. If this was 4th, you could charge a Healing Surge to use such an item. In 3rd, it could require expending an unused spell slot of the appropriate level.
3. Remove Unlimited Spell Access and Learning: This is yet another attempt to reign in the unlimited flexibility of a wizard. Earlier editions limited how many spells per level a wizard could have in their spell book. This forced a wizard to manage his spell list, giving each selection an opportunity cost. I don't think going back to limiting the max spells per level is correct (this steps too much into the Sorcerer's spell selection method).
Instead, by making learning new spells difficult, you can keep a wizard's spell book from inflating to include all spells ever produced for that edition (which I believe to be a noble goal). Perhaps the first spell he learns when he levels is free and each additional spell requires an increasingly difficult check (I dislike this because of the book keeping involved).
An unlimited spell book isn't a problem however if options 1 and 2 are implemented properly. Let the wizard know every spell, he'll only have access to a few of them each day.
4. Additional Cost for Class Stealing Spells: Again, this isn't as big of a concern if options 1 and 2 are followed. Or if you limited what spells a wizard takes each level (Knock isn't going to be high on the list). If you keep 4 spell slots per level and cheaply produced scrolls and wands, you absolutely have to limit the power of spells like Knock by adding additional cost to them. A wand of knock vastly reduces the non-combat usefulness of a rogue.
5. Make Combat Casting Difficult: If a wizard was just about casting damage spells, I don't think this would be required. Damage can be healed with ease in combat. An illusion spell is far more devastating (in the hands of a creative player) then magic missile or lightning bolt. Combat Casting shouldn't be impossible, but it shouldn't be as easy as it was in 3rd. A Ranger readying an action to shoot the wizard should negate the wizard, but it should make casting spells difficult.
The class can't be a living god on the battlefield. Common tactics (such as get the wizard) should be effective against him. A single enemy harassing the wizard should make it difficult or costly for him to cast spells.
Regardless, I'm enjoying seeing the responses and ideas in the thread
without heavy mix-maxing invokers are hands down weakest of wizards.
one per encounter?
now that's harsh?
what's a wizard to do after?
shoot bolts and swing a staff?
but I like your train of thought somewhat.
how about...wizard can cast ONE spell of highest level, one spell of SECOND HIGHEST level, one spell of THIRD highest level, etc...until you take a short brake. When you get to cast 5th level spells you can cast 1st level spell without limits, when you get to 10th level spells you can cast 2nd level spell without this limit.
Also he can try to push himself above limit by trying to cast more of the limited spells by succeeding on concentration check of 20+SL or lose a spell but taking 25% of MAX HP damage and getting fatigued(no mather the result of the check the damage is dealt and spell slot is used).
Second try would get him another 25% of max hp damage and exausted,
third try would give him another 25% of max hp damage and make him unconscious after the spell casting is complete.
Do people not pay attention to actual gameplay when it comes to Knock or are those people just stuck on internet theorycrafting?
The limitations of Knock have already been presented. It doesn't matter if you have 1 Knock or 50, the spell doesn't eliminate the traps that go with it.
A party would have to be completely dumb to allow the Wizard to walk up and use Knock on a door first and not let the rogue search for traps first and then allow him to unlock the door.
Something else that people need to understand is the fact that Open Locks does not always equal a rogue. I know plenty of people who made rogue who didn't put any points in the Open Lock skill. A rogue will always be he king of utility with his UMD skill.
The limitations of Knock have already been presented. It doesn't matter if you have 1 Knock or 50, the spell doesn't eliminate the traps that go with it.
A party would have to be completely dumb to allow the Wizard to walk up and use Knock on a door first and not let the rogue search for traps first and then allow him to unlock the door.
Something else that people need to understand is the fact that Open Locks does not always equal a rogue. I know plenty of people who made rogue who didn't put any points in the Open Lock skill. A rogue will always be he king of utility with his UMD skill.
Alaxk Knight of Galt
First Post
The 3rd Rogue got two major features: Sneak Attack and Lots of Skills. It's the Lot's of Skills that get trampled all over by the wizard. Let's look at the 3.5 SRD Skill list for the class. For the record, a lot of this is theory crafting. Theory craft doesn't always apply one to one in actual play.
Charm Person (1st) and Suggestion (2nd) covers most of the Cha / Social Skills
Knock (2nd)and Open/Close (0th) can cover most of the door opening things you might require (Knock has a range of 100 ft + 10 ft per level, so you can be a good distance away from any possible trapped door).
Spider Climb (2nd), Jump (1st), Fly (3rd), and Gaseous Form (3rd) can handle almost all of the movement based skills
Detect Thoughts (2nd) can cover sense motive
Invisibility (2nd) covers hide
Alter Self (2nd) and Disguise Self (1st) covers Disguise
Silent Image (1st) gets you pretty close to forgery (assuming you can keep concentrating on the document at hand)
Comprehend Languages (1st) gets Decipher Script
Various Divination spells greatly help Search and Spot, though these are not great 1 to 1 matches
Wizards can already use magical devices, so that's covered
Prestidigitation (0th) covers Sleight of Hand
Wizards already have access to Craft, Knowledge, and Profession
Animate Rope (1st) will probably cover most usages of Use Rope
What skills does that leave us?
- Appraise (Int)
- Disable Device
- Listen (Wis)
- Move Silently (Dex)
- Perform (Cha)
Can a good DM overcome this? Absolutely. The problem isn't that these spells exist. It's that these spells can be easily accessed either through lots of spell slots and cheap, player produced scrolls and wands.
None of the spells listed are beyond 3rd level, most are 2nd or 1st. Scribing a 3rd level spell cast by a 5th level wizard cost 15 XP and 375 gold. A 2nd level spell cast by a 3rd level wizard: 6 XP and 150 gold.
Mattachine
Adventurer
The traps are largely removed by using low level monster summoning spells from wands.
