"Fixed duration" to "save ends"

[jbear]

Often 'save ends' is much weaker than 'until ...' because elites/solos have bonusses to saves,
and leaders can give additional save rolls to players. Or just think of a warden...

So why is the save DC for 'until ...' conditions lower? Seems odd to me.

I agree. In play 'Until the End of Next Turn' is often stronger than 'save ends'.

My players have loads of ways to give SThrows to allies. My Cleric has the mark of Healing, every time she heals the target gets a SThrow. Those conditions that can't be shaken seem like the strong ones in 70% of case. It's quite rare that my players are affected by a condition that 'Save Ends' for more than 1 or 2 rounds.

All I can recommend is having a digital DM Screen run on a laptop (several good free programs around ... like 'DungeonMaster's Battlescreen') that will track the conditions for you. It might be a more satisfactory solution.

In the end you are going to have to keep track of whether each condition is Easy or Hard Save which will be fiddly as well I'm sure.

 

[Siberys]

Suppose everything but save ends were to be changed to UENT, then. Might that work?

It'll slightly empower the PCs - second wind and total defense get better, for example.

 

[Siberys]

To elaborate on my last post;

One very common initiative house rule I've read about involves basically moving the PCs and enemies as groups. The DM rolls group initiatives for each opposing 'team' (averaging initiative scores or whatever), and each PC rolls initiative.

Any PC that beat all opposition goes, then the opposing groups. In the groups, all monsters in that group act in any order, but they have to do a full turn before moving to the next. After those groups go, ALL PCs go, and they choose the order.

Here's where this ties in with the tracking quandry. All non-save durations become "until the end of the target's GROUP'S next turn". This does two things;

First, ending effects is easy. It works just like checking for summoning sickness in Magic: the Gathering. At the end of the group turn simply check if a condition has been on a creature since the beginning of the group's turn. If yes, remove. If no, leave on.

Second, This allows for almost all of the utility of the uent effects for controllers. Since the PCs choose the order they move in, they could have the controller with the awesome effects go first, followed by everyone else to take advantage of them. The only downside relative to normal is that the controller wouldn't be able to to take advantage of his own effects without an AP. Other stuff is powered up, though (second wind, frex).

 

[ren1999]

In the 4eTurnTracker program listed in 4e Fan Creations and House Rules
there are 6 end condition options.
End the condition at the start or end of the attacked's turn.
at the start or end of the attacker's turn.
saving throw ends
condition ends at the end of the encounter

But what if an ally can end a condition?

I'm working this out in my own JavaScript tracker now and have decided to add a general saving throw that any player character can roll to end the condition of another. But my solution requires looking carefully at the conditions of each pc in order to see if it ends.

The 4eTurnTracker is much easier for tracking, but not versatile enough yet.

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

How about splitting the difference on the effects?

Make your turn this:

• Move Action (or skip Move action)
• "Until next turn" effects on you that were on you at the beginning of your turn end
• Standard Action

or

• Standard Action (or skip standard action)
• "Until next turn" effects on you that were on you at the beginning of your turn end
• Move Action

Minor actions can be anywhere in that line-up. Less book-keeping (no longer "end" or "start" endings) but would add another level of strategy to one's turn.