D&D 4E Fixing 4e

[Falling Icicle]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on ENWorld. I just started to browse, but it appears I've stumbled across THE Mecca for 4e discussion! I bought the basic books for 4e and read through them, but ran into some initial problems. I've started to come up with a few ideas to fix them, and was wondering if you had any advice? First, a few problems...

Welcome to the forums!

1) Characters are defined entirely by their combat role; i.e. there is no "ranger" outside of combat.

This isn't entirely true. The skill selection of each class has a very significant impact on what they can do out of combat. Alot of the things that were once class-specific abilities, like trapfinding and tracking, are now included in skills. Rangers can still Track, they just use the Perception skill to do so.

2) Combats take way too long and are not dramatic enough.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but my experience has been just the opposite.

3) Characters do not have "weak" ability scores to contrast their "strong" ability scores. No PC I have yet seen has multiple negative ability modifiers.

How often did you see NPC's with multiple ability scores less than 10 in 3e? if you want to make such an NPC, you're free to do so.

4) Maps and miniatures can get expensive to collect and inhibit the player's imagination.

Neither of those things are absolutely required for play. You can pretty easily get graph paper and mark things with a pencil, use poker chips, etc. You don't have to be all fancy to benefit from battlemat style play.

5) Knowing the magic items in the PHB, being able to identify items immediately after the battle and being able to break magic items down into Residuum kills all the mystery in the magic items.

The rules for identifying magic items talks about how the DM can require Arcana checks or even unique rituals to identify special items. The rules for identifying things after a short rest are there for simpler items that are designed to be easy to use. If this still bothers you, just require an Arcana check to identify any item.

6) Damage and healing has been reduced to simple hit points, with no injuries, scars etc.

How is this different from previous editions?

So, here are the solutions I am considering...

1) Remove Daily, Encounter and At Will powers except for racial powers, magic item powers and Encounter/Daily spells and prayers. In their place, each class gets appropriate out-of-battle storyline abilities (perhaps like Non-Weapon Proficiencies in 2e); the player need only ask "my guys a fighter, can I give tactical advice to the king?" and the GM will consider it (when a roll is involved, such a class will get a significant bonus).
2) Reduce starting HP to equal your Constitution ability score. Reduce monster HP appropriately.
3) Either generate abilities with 3d6 or have a 6/8/10/10/12/14 array.
4) Removing many of the Powers will allow you to play without maps. Other rules like Marking can also be dropped to make this easier.
5) The magic items in the PHB do not exist (they are just legends you heard of as a child). Magic items must be identified by a Wizard (a one-time per item per Wizard Daily spell, with a percent chance equal to 3x his level - i.e. Wizard 10 has a 30% chance) or a sage (some wise man, based on storyline goals the GM has in mind and perhaps for a price). Residuum doesn't exist.
6) Each time a character takes a significant amount of damage (perhaps a quarter or half his total HP in one hit), he suffers an injury that penalizes him some how in and out of battle (up to the GM). Healing Surges are once per day and do not restore injuries.

So, what do you think?

I think they're terrible ideas, to be honest.

 

[PeelSeel2]

2) Reduce starting HP to equal your Constitution ability score. Reduce monster HP appropriately.

I kinda like that one. I was considering going with 2-3x the HP per level for starting, plus the stat modifier from their prime stat.

3) Either generate abilities with 3d6 or have a 6/8/10/10/12/14 array.

3d6 all the way baby!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Welcome to the boards.. yes, this is a pretty good place to catch up 4e.

Something kinda jummped out at me in your post and I wanted to clarify:

4) Removing many of the Powers will allow you to play without maps. Other rules like Marking can also be dropped to make this easier.

and

For instance, I like skills, the task resolution system (roll 1d20, add modifiers, compare to target number for all tasks), the basic battle system (grab, slide, shift etc), the four defenses (probably my favorite thing) and I am really liking the multi-class system and rituals.

So, you want to remove powers that focus on the spacial relatoinship between characters, best visualised on a map, and want to play 4e due to the inventive combat options such as 'slide' and 'shift'... two spatially focused actions?

I would echo many of the above.. try 4e as it is before you start trying to tweak it. You may find that many of your objections are not that much of a problem.

Well, except for the cost of miniatures. But a good bag of good old plastic Army soldiers or the Zombies game will tide you over. You could also grab Sparks, a font for printable miniatures...

 

[Galadrin]

@Falling Icicle and Primitive, thanks for the welcome!

This isn't entirely true. The skill selection of each class has a very significant impact on what they can do out of combat. Alot of the things that were once class-specific abilities, like trapfinding and tracking, are now included in skills. Rangers can still Track, they just use the Perception skill to do so.

I recognised this myself, but I'm not entirely sold on it. Despite my interests in streamlining 4e, I do want a little crunch when it comes to character archetypes.

I hasten to clarify; I don't mean combat archetype (aka role), mind you... someone said earlier that I should just play BD&D where elf is a class, and I actually really liked that about the old edition. Take the Lord of the Rings, for instance... there are multiple human classes in the party, and then there is a Dwarf, an Elf and Halflings... they are very stereotypical yet they fill a story role perfectly; they are character archetypes. I'm thinking of ways to do something similar to, say, the ranger class.

How often did you see NPC's with multiple ability scores less than 10 in 3e? if you want to make such an NPC, you're free to do so.

Actually, I didn't play much of 3rd Edition!

The rules for identifying magic items talks about how the DM can require Arcana checks or even unique rituals to identify special items. The rules for identifying things after a short rest are there for simpler items that are designed to be easy to use. If this still bothers you, just require an Arcana check to identify any item.

Thanks for the tip Falling Icicle! That might be just what I'm looking for re: Identification. I will check that section out.

How is this different from previous editions?

Actually good point, I slipped that in there because that is a houserule I've used in D&D in the past. I shouldn't have put it under the header of "things to fix" so much as "cool stuff to add".

@smathis; great idea on the exploding dice, thanks! I am going to playtest that a bit and see how it goes.

@Primitive, thanks for the link, good stuff there.

I know a lot of people mention trying the game out more before tweaking it. I've played in 4 sessions and fought six battles. I will try the game as written some more, but it seems to be beating a dead horse for me... the standard battle takes over an hour, usually, which is a lot of time to spend not actually roleplaying. The battles also have been pretty boring to me... whenever I hear something like "I bust out my daily power", I just lose any image of the battle I had in my head. I'd rather have a standard sword-fighting attack be the default, and the weird, ingenious manoeuvre be the highlight of the battle.

 

[Galadrin]

Oh, I just thought of something that might be helpful. A few posters felt that I was ripping the game apart... but imagine 4th Edition d20 Modern. The changes wouldn't be wildly different than the changes I proposed (powers would be gone, the identify thing would be gone). Maybe what I am after is a theoretical 4e d20 Modern with classic fantasy flavouring to the classes? Yet keep rituals, and the cool weapon proficiency rules and stuff like that. Is that helpful?

I mean 4e is so damn modular, that is totally one of its strong points. Removing blocks of rules you don't feel for is much easier than in many other games! Oh ye of little faith!

 

[Tehnai]

Well, I'm actually running a DnD 4E modern game, with little to no houseruling (armor shows up as clothing, ranged weapons may be guns, although my players prefered mystical bows and such, all magical items are now pins that take up a slot "I'll just pin this thing to my shoe and TADDA! I walk on water!")

Of course, I am known for my non-standard games around here...

if you wanted a no-magic version, give an addititonal +1 to attack, AC, and all other defences every 5 levels or so.

It works great, really.

Rules are only a tool to help you run a game, the overall "feel" of your gametable shouldn't be given by a set of rules, but by your narration and your players playstyle.

As another poster said, play 4E as it is, use lego dudes as minis, or some similar things. 4E needs very little fixing, a lot less then the last edition. Approach the game with an open mind, I say.

 

[Jack Colby]

Wow, for a second I actually thought you were being serious. Good post, OP. Very amusing.

 

[vagabundo]

Just a quick note, 4e is a fairly balanced game as is, before making such radical changes to the whole game I suggest that you try make your changes within the system. To get the feel of the game your looking for.

Combats take slightly less time than 3e, but much more rounds pass and a lot more happening/per character.

However if you are used to quicker combats work on how your design the encounters to speed up play. Use more minions (very cinematic, makes the players feel heroic), maybe commanded by an elite.

Similarly there is a wound system in the house rules somewhere that might feel the bill for your scars and long term injuries (dont have the link to hand). It uses the diseases system (which is a really cool system).

Changing the powers/class system is certainly possible but not for the faint hearted..

Sounds like you are looking for a gritter playstyle for 4e, I think this could be played just using the heroic tier and limiting powers, there is a martial source booking coming out in a few months that you could pick gritter exploits from...

 

[Plane Sailing]

Wow, for a second I actually thought you were being serious. Good post, OP. Very amusing.

Don't threadcrap in other peoples threads. Don't make assumptions (or veiled accusations of trolling) to other people.

If you think a thread is actionable, report it. If you don't have anything constructive to add to it, just don't post to it.

Thanks

 

[smathis]

@smathis; great idea on the exploding dice, thanks! I am going to playtest that a bit and see how it goes.

Cool, Galadrin. And welcome to the forums.

Do consider limiting it to only one damage die that can explode. So, if a Monster rolls three 6s on 3d6, they're only re-rolling one die.

I don't think that would be too bad. It could work towards shortening combat -- which hasn't been a problem for me in 4e yet.

The only other caveat I can think of is that it would be easier for smaller sized dice to explode (d4s and d6s). I'm not sure how to mitigate that. But it may not wind up being that big of a deal in play.

I agree with vagabundo on working with the 4e system. I haven't gotten to the diseases section in the DMG yet. I just finished the PHB last night and just started on the DMG.

But I'm still planning on using the partial refresh instead of the full refresh. It seems right to me, somehow. I don't care for the full refresh rules, although I understand why the designers put them in there.