[Fixing 5E] Saving Throws - Fortitude Reflex Will

[Leatherhead]

What would the math look like if the divide was Str/Cha Con/Wis Int/Dex?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

1) you add the bonuses, not take the best. Why?

As in, what benefit do you see in allowing characters to become ouright immune to even the hardest save? (If you previously had +11 in Wis saves and +11 in Cha saves, your Will save would now be +22)

First, there's the math thing. Save DCs scale with your primary stat and always get proficiency - always two high numbers - but actual saves only scale with one stat (not necessarily your primary) and only get proficiency a third of the time.

Comparing two high numbers against one (not-necessarily high) number - a wizard making a Charisma save - is not an interesting situation. Comparing two high numbers against two numbers (only one of which is necessarily high) - a wizard making a Wisdom save - is almost interesting. As it stands currently, the only time you get a real toss-up as to the outcome is when you cast a spell at the worst possible target - someone using an Int save against a wizard, or a Dex save against a rogue - and even that is only fifty percent!

With my change, you're comparing two high numbers against two or three numbers, of which none are necessarily high. You could still hit a fighter with a Will save, and it would be almost as bad as it is now; it wouldn't be quite as bad, since they might have a +1 or +2 in the other stat, but it would be almost as bad. And sure, a barbarian might have +15 to save against your DC 18 spell, but there's nothing wrong with that - in this instance, the wizard chose the exact wrong spell to use, and the barbarian still might fail!

Note that proficiency only applies once, though (per the second point).

More importantly, adding bonuses together means you are actually incentivized to invest in both stats. If you improve your Dex mod by +1, it will always increase your Reflex save by +1, even if your Int is higher. Given a dextrous fighter in one corner, and Stephen Hawking in the other, their relative ability to evade a fireball should not be too close to call; and either one should clearly be inferior to their combined form.

2) you put a greater weight on Con, Dex and Wis over Str, Int and Cha (since the former three govern proficiency but the latter three don't). Why do you consider something like Int proficiency worthless?

For the way that the game is currently designed, there are three major saves (Dex, Con, Wis) and three minor saves (Str, Int, Cha). Every class gets one of each. Effects that call for a major save are much, much more common than effects that call for a minor save.

You can follow the design process where they started with the three saves from the previous editions, tried to reconcile that into using all six stats so that you'd have fewer derived values on your sheet, but couldn't quite figure out how to split up the effects evenly so that they would all be equally distinct and useful, so they gave up and segregated them into two categories. The major saves are important because they govern just about everything that was covered by the three saves in the earlier editions, and the minor saves are an afterthought because it was too late in the design process to scrap them entirely.

I consider proficiency in Str/Int/Cha to be virtually worthless, because that's how the game already treats them. They only exist as a gotcha for some obscure monster to bypass your meaningful saves, and to make arcane spellcasters less resilient (since their prime stats correspond to minor saves, which means there's nothing that matters that they're good at resisting).

 

[One_Shots]

Putting aside the unscientific self-selection bias of attempted censorship going on here, why not just give half-proficiency to everyone for all saving throws and be done with it? That addresses all the issues you seem to have with the current system while working within it, not unbalancing it terribly, and not requiring anything else to be changed or reworked for balance.

 

[Xeviat]

In my games, I bumped save DCs up to 10+prof+stat and made the saves all prof+stat. The resilient feat is gone. I haven't decided how to rebalance the rogues wis save prof or the monk's every save prof. It makes sure the differences don't get unmanageable at out tables.


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[Jester David]

(I did a forum search but couldn't find any really relevant discussion, so I'm turning to y'all)

Have anyone created a variant where you revert back to how saves were organized in the previous two editions? Anyone playtested such a variant, preferably for parties of level 11 or above?

I imagine it would be a pretty simple to just have Constitution, Wisdom, and Dexterity saving throws again, dropping Str, Int, and Cha. Have every class proficient in one saving throw, either based on the one that still exists or their choice if they have two of the remaining three.

But when the DC creeps above 20, it stops being funny.

There's only, what, twenty monsters with DCs of 20 or higher? Including all 10 ancient dragons. This seems like an issue that will come up two, maybe three times in a campaign. And then only if the campaign actually reaches above level 15. And most are of a CR above level 20, and thus not expected foes. They're bosses, which are that little extra deadlier, and facing them requires planning and buffs.

No system is every 100% perfect. With a couple saving throws rolled each combat, and roughly 175 encounters been 1st level and 20th level, that's 350 saving throws rolled per PC. Likely more. Having four or five saving throws that might be an auto-fail is problematic, but that's still 1.42% of all saving throws. Unbalanced dice will likely have a larger impact...

A better revision would be not using those monsters. Or ruling the DC of their saves caps at 20, changing the two-dozen egregious monsters rather than every PC for the entire campaign.


That said, saving throws are wonky. Your odds of success do decrease over time. The design is off, but it has nothing to do with DC 21+ saving throws. Focusing on that distracts away from the real problem with saving throws.
The catch is, your saves increase with levels, but so do the DCs. It's the one subsystem in 5e where the DCs change. So with proficiency, your chances of success effectively remain constant, while everyone else's chances for success decrease. It's a funky system that exists because they wanted spellcasters to have spells that are harder to resist at high levels. It was probably a mistake to have monsters follow those same rules.

If redesigning the system, I might have saving throws only increase through increasing ability scores but not proficiency. Or only adding half proficiency. (Perhaps starting at 9 or 10 to keep the starting numbers closer.)

 

[dave2008]

Putting aside the unscientific self-selection bias of attempted censorship going on here,

Asking someone to stay on topic is not censorship, it is moderating

...why not just give half-proficiency to everyone for all saving throws and be done with it? That addresses all the issues you seem to have with the current system while working within it, not unbalancing it terribly, and not requiring anything else to be changed or reworked for balance.

That is a simple solution, thank you for sharing,

 

[CapnZapp]

This seems like an issue that will come up two, maybe three times in a campaign. And then only if the campaign actually reaches above level 15. And most are of a CR above level 20, and thus not expected foes. They're bosses, which are that little extra deadlier, and facing them requires planning and buffs.

Sorry - you and I have very different expectations on the system in that case.

This is specifically and explicitly about how the system breaks down for what you call those "two, maybe three" times. That the campaign reaches above level 15 is a given.

So please stop dismissing the issue just because you don't care high level play is broken. Thank you.

 

[Kryx]

Did you look at possible the old 4e method, but with averages?

Fort = average of STR and CON
Reflex = average of DEX and INT
Will = average of WIS and CHA

I tried that system and it's horribly unbalanced. Fort spells will never succeed, reflex spells will succeed nearly twice as much - especially as levels go up and will is in the middle.
You'd have to rebalance the entire MM which I also considered for different combinations, but definitely not worth it.

EDIT: Ran the numbers again. Across all levels likelihood that an enemy would save: 52% fort, 39% reflex, 44% Will. At 17-20 we're looking at 66% fort, 45% reflex, 56% will. Unacceptable imo.

My results: 47,46,46 overall. 59,54,58 at 17-20.

That being said I kind of like Reflex as STR + DEX, thought there was something compelling to the idea by being smart enough you could sorta predict how things were going down and could thus react (Reflex) better.

Initially I was opposed to the idea of Str + Dex = Reflex, but the two are used for quite a few things in D&D so it makes sense - escape grapple, break out of restrain, etc (I had a list at one point). I tried many different combinations and in the end this one was the best mathematically and pretty darn good thematically (arguable based on opinions).

I think I might use your system for attacks (use Reflex for mundane and Will for magic attacks and DCs, not sure about Fortitude attacks) too and even many ability checks. I would keep the 6 abilities (save and checks), but they would generally be secondary and used only in special situations.

I heavily considered that system, and I really liked that armor became DR, but we decided against it. It could simplify some things.

What would the math look like if the divide was Str/Cha Con/Wis Int/Dex?

Anything combined with Con will be far more likely to succeed than the rest because it's already quite high on most monsters.

If using the old Fort, Ref, Will saves; I would probably only give a single proficient save for each class.

I do exactly that - I have a list for them in the homebrew. It's basically the same except for Bard who could potentially choose Reflex or Will.

I also think that an current Intelligence saves should be will saves, seems odd to use reflex to save against an illusion or feeblemind spell.

Definitely. Current Intelligence saves are definitely Will saves no matter how you combine the ability scores.

why not just give half-proficiency to everyone for all saving throws and be done with it? That addresses all the issues you seem to have with the current system while working within it, not unbalancing it terribly, and not requiring anything else to be changed or reworked for balance.

I considered this option - it was my original fix, but it doesn't solve the issues at all. As the game advances in levels Constitution save spells are still significantly less likely to succeed and Intelligence spells succeed 70% of the time on average. It's rather ridiculously unbalanced. Giving half prof to all doesn't solve this unbalance.

 

[Horwath]

I would go for;

Fort save(str,con)
Ref save(dex)
Will save(int,wis,cha)

 

[Kryx]

I would go for;

Fort save(str,con)
Ref save(dex)
Will save(int,wis,cha)

Those combinations would result in Reflex being by far the best spells to use.

Monster Fort would have a success rate of 52% overall, or 66% at 17-20.
Monster Ref would have a success rate of 39% overall, or 40% at 17-20.
Monster Will would have a success rate of 46% overall, or 58% at 17-20.


That is not good balance compared to the combinations I made: My results: 47%,46%,46% overall. 59%,54%,58% at 17-20.