D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

[Lancelot]

Add me to the list of people saying: "Champion is fine, and we don't all agree that it's the nerfed version of the fighter."

The fighter is the #1 top class choice in my two gaming groups, and the Champion is the #1 top archetype selected by my players.

The changes you recommend would be instantly rejected at my table as over-powered and unnecessary. Crit range on 15-20 means that over half of your attacks are critical hits assuming you have advantage, which is pretty easy to gain (.7 squared = .49 chance of not getting a critical hit). Allowing the fighter to take attack bonuses or AC bonuses that stack on their original fighting style choice, rather than forcing them to take a different fighting style, starts pushing the limits of bounded accuracy.

...but, heck, it's your game and your table. If you're the DM and you think these changes are justified at your table, go for it.

I would never want to see this as formal errata though. The Champion is fine as it is, and particularly fine for a new player. It's one of the best classes for introducing someone to the game. No extraneous resources to track, no dice pools, just focus on the roleplaying. If it's mechanically boring for the experienced player, then good news! There are dozens of other classes / sub-classes that you can play. I'm actually disappointed there are no wizard-equivalents for the Champion. For example, the wizard class that has only three spells it can ever cast, no slots to track, escalating damage based on level. A spellcasting class for the puzzled cousin who has never heard of D&D before, but wants to dip his toe in. Or for the kids that we're trying to get interested in the game.

 

[Unwise]

I'm rather surprised to see so many people like the Champion as is, soon after 5e came out, it was demonized as useless, the pendulum has swung back it seems. I have always loved the simplicity, but felt they give up too much effectiveness for that. I think if anything the simple options should be equal to the most powerful. Give noobs a powerful and simple character to get a handle on (not that only noobs will play one). Peronally I feel that overall the Champion is OK compared to other classes, because the Fighter is great, not because the subclass isn't lacking.

I always felt that all they brought to the table was the increased crit range. I had thought that even just doing damage with the 4 x d8 expertise dice per short rest, the Battlemaster ends up doing more damage and when they want it. This of course ignores the excellent effects attached to those maneuvers. If you are a Champion tank, you would have to roll a 19 4 times in a short rest to equal that bonus damage.

Our group plays that crits are max normal damage + rolled extra weapon dice, and still nobody has been tempted by a Champion.

My gripes about that Champion are that
A) If you are giving up flexibility and maneuvers, your damage should exceed that for a Battlemaster using his maneuvers unintelligently on average over the day.
B) There are no defensive subclass options to play a simple tank, rather than damage dealer
C) Remarkable athlete does not even work as a "ribbon ability", it does not make the Champ remarkable in the least.

Off the top of my head I'd like to see something like
A) Add in a choice between expending the crit range by another X or adding +1 AC (Adding 1AC to a class that can wear platemail and get defensive style is actually really significant, the value goes up exponentially. This could make them pretty fearsome tanks. Might be OP but is simple at least)
B) Allow Remarkable Athlete to work with even skills you are proficient in. A slightly nerfed expertise that applies to many things. In my games, I would consider "once per long rest, take 20 on any athletics roll after seeing the dice, dictate how you did it" though that sort of thing is not for every table.

Regarding the expanded crit range, just run some numbers, averaging ten rounds of combat between short rests, you need to get to some pretty high chances of crits to exceed what a BM can do as a side effect of their maneuvers. 10 rounds, 20 attacks, crit range of 15-20 = 5d8 to 5d12 extra damage given at random compared to the BMs 4d8 when they want them. A subclasses main schtick should far exceed a component of another subclass's schtick. Crit range abilities are so dependent on the number of attacks, that they might bite at level 3 but be amazing with 4 attacks. Complicating it again is advantage, it makes it damn hard to balance as the core schtick of a class. If I cared a lot about balance and wanted to keep things simple, it would be possible to just say that the Champ adds X to its damage all the time.

 

[Hussar]

I have to admit, having played a "mostly" (it was a slightly modified Champion, trading extended crit range for gaining advantage fairly regularly), I'm a bit underwhelmed by the Champion. And, seeing a second one being played in the same campaign, it does seem a bit on the weak side.

Sure, you crit, and, as was mentioned, if you have a way to regularly grant advantage, that would make a HUGE difference, but, it really does seem to lag behind. The BM is, by and large, getting +4d8 per short rest, the ranger with colossus slayer is getting +1d8 just about every round and the paladin is gaining boat loads of bonus damage through spells/smites. And the pay off for that is, again, by and large, +2 to a handful of skills. Seems a pretty steep price for so little gain.

IMO, the best thing for champion is to gain extra attack a little bit faster. Say you get your second attack at 4th, (instead of 5th), and a third attack at 8th. Make it every 4 levels instead of every 5. That, right there, would put the champion in the middle of the pack and make his bonuses to crits actually come into play more often.

Players shouldn't have to try to end run around things by taking things like Pole Arm Master (for the bonus attack) or Two Weapon Fighting (again for the bonus attack) just to make their class abilities come into play. And, really, what's the difference? If many players are going the route of gaining bonus attacks, why not build that into the class? Heck, instead of gaining extra attacks, just make an extra attack as a bonus action with no strength bonus, same as an off hand attack. Uses up the character's bonus action (which a Champion doesn't really need anyway) and doesn't add huge damage - just enough to bring the Champion up to snuff.

Really, I think the "Gain a bonus action attack on your turn" benefit would resolve most of the issues.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Really, I think the "Gain a bonus action attack on your turn" benefit would resolve most of the issues.

That's what TWF is?

 

[krakistophales]

I'm not sure how people can say that the changes are excessive. At level 3, you normally get a measly 5% extra chance to crit, and under the best circumstances, this equates to an extra 2d6 damage, wow an average extra of 6 damage to your regular attack roll 1 out of 10 times.

In past editions, crits not only doubled or even tripled your damage dice, they also tripled your static bonus to the attack, and that's back when fighters could use a power attack without penalty and crit on a 15, yet now allowing a level 20 fighter to crit on a 16 as his bread-and-butter archetype feature is excessive? I just don't see it.

Remarkable athlete is anything but remarkable. It should be called so-so athlete because that's exactly what it makes you in a handful of skills you aren't already great in. At least this way those handful of skills you aren't any good in you'll now be up to snuff in, and still be great in those that you have stat bonuses to.

Everyone is griping about the armor or weapon choice, but what is that except a narrowed down version of picking an extra fighting style? Almost everyone goes for the +1 AC since picking up a fighting style with a weapon you haven't used for the previous 9 levels won't benefit you one little bit. All the armor choice does is expand heavy armor master's idea to include magic damage, which taking 3 off higher level spells means nothing at all, and the weapon choice gives him a slight damage boost, which he needs to keep up with BM, and allows him to deal full damage to anything that comes across his path.

As for the regeneration, that's whatever, at such a high level it won't even matter.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I personally like the champion, but I think the changes the OP would like to make could be managed by custom feats. Fighters get lots of feats after all. So maybe a feat to increase the crit range, etc.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I'm rather surprised to see so many people like the Champion as is, soon after 5e came out, it was demonized as useless, the pendulum has swung back it seems.

My experience with that matter is that the class was being "demonized as useless" by people other than those that it was designed for - those that don't want a simple fighter, and who the batllemaster was put in the game for - not by people that actually desired to have a fighter class that is as close to as mechanically simple as the classic D&D fighter classes were as 5th edition can handle.

 

[Lanliss]

I apologize if I am wrong, but am I the only one who thinks this is a joke? The key tips for me were "champion is underwhelming" and "crits should be 15".

 

[Hussar]

That's what TWF is?

Well sure. But this way you get it with all weapons without costing you a feat. I mean pole arm master gets the same effect as well. Why not just build it straight into the class? Perhaps granting an additional extra attack later down the road. So at high level you get your three or four attacks plus two attacks on the bonus action.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

One thing that rarely comes up is that since Remarkable Athlete grants you an initiative bonus, and initiative, over the course of the campaign, increases the length of time you will participate in a fight, Remarkable Athlete is actually a hidden damage boost.

The other thing I think works quite well is that old school players who may want the more straightforward play, are also more likely to be used to improvising and going with DM rulings to do interesting things in a fight (rather than using defined features)...which is a great way to possibly get advantage on attacks...which improves the usefulness of Champion.

Basically, my initial reaction to Champion was that it looked weak. After lots of forum discussion, math, and a bit of play experience, I no longer feel so.