D&D 5E (2014) Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[Garthanos]

Of course the spell does more than enable an escape doesn't it... it undermines huge amounts of journey skills..

 

[Undrave]

Woah. First, expertise is still just letting the dice decide.

Second, if "later" doesn't count for the fighter, why would it count for the rogue?

I am sensing a double standard here.



No now we definitely have shifting positions. Earlier people said "before level 6". So I listed a bunch which come at level 3, and now that doesn't count either? And the counter-example is one of the only classes that get their big subclass ability at level one?

Are we going to have a fair discussion here or not? Of course level three counts. MOST classes get their subclass at level 3. It's OK to use level 3.

I mean, I didn't say 'before level 6' myself... and I admit the extra proficiencies of the subclass are nice. They're just not phenomenal.

Expertise is, yes, still letting the dice decide, but it means you just factally have better odds. If you have players who are proficient and one with expertise, you know that profciency will just devolve to the help action. Which is useful but not particularly thrilling for the helper.

Expertise is just... more interesting than simple proficiency I guess. It's, like I mention, mostly a flavor thing. Know what I'm saying?

And like it was mentionned, the game is too stingy with handing out Expertise. Clerics should get Expertise in Religion and Wizard get it in Arcana and Bard in one of the CHA skills. The Fighter should get Expertise Athletics or Acrobatics.

Really, I'm willing to admit balance is, on the whole, fine. I'll be honest, the Fighter's out of combat options are just too boring for me.

They don't feel like "Look at this Cool naughty word I can do now!" when you reach those levels, thy're just "Oh, more of that, neat!". Where's the pizzaz?! The evocative class feature names? The PHB Fighter almost feels like they included it because they had to and try to spend as little page count on it as possible. It makes mayonaise looks spicy.

I haven't got the other books but from what I read I do think some of the new subclasses have a bit of a better flavor. Mechanics, for in combat stuff, don't feel as solid though (seriously, what's up with the Arcane Archer?! Is it an Arcane Archer or 'Dude with 3 cool Arrows'?)

 

[Garthanos]

That transport spell also undermines the value of that knowing which way is north... just mentioned. (not completely or always)

 

[Garthanos]

Again: EVERYBODY can leverage skills. That's the baseline everybody gets... and even there, Fighters get 1 less than other classes for no discernable reasons.

I thought they? didnt they get that issue in 5th edition?????

 

[Sacrosanct]

Oh that's easy - they still rock in combat. I can answer that from experience, at least for the Battlemaster.

Time to repeat a story I’ve said often over the past few years. You’ve probably heard it already. One of my favorite PCs from 1e was my halfling fighter thief. When 5e came along, I converted him to a single class fighter with the urchin background and skulker feat (when he hit level 4). Played exactly the same as the 1e version (sneaky fighter), and there was no noticeable lack of combat skills. A dex based champion fighter still had action surge, still had second wind, still did good damage, still got fighting styles, and had exploration ability that was second only to the rogue

Frogreaver is one of those who has definitely given me the impression over the past few years that unless you optimize, you’re not effective. So take that in context of this thread.

 

[Garthanos]

My reading apparently sucks so going to just try and read more. (that will fix it)

 

[Sacrosanct]

They don't feel like "Look at this Cool naughty word I can do now!" when you reach those levels, thy're just "Oh, more of that, neat!". Where's the pizzaz?! The evocative class feature names? The PHB Fighter almost feels like they included it because they had to and try to spend as little page count on it as possible. It makes mayonaise looks spicy.

I haven't got the other books but from what I read I do think some of the new subclasses have a bit of a better flavor. Mechanics, for in combat stuff, don't feel as solid though (seriously, what's up with the Arcane Archer?! Is it an Arcane Archer or 'Dude with 3 cool Arrows'?)

One of those options is to be a ritual caster. If that’s not “oh! Look what I can do now!”, then I don’t know what is, compared to what every other class is getting as a class feature. Have you even looked at what some of the class features are for some other classes? Talk about meh.

 

[Undrave]

Garthanos also raises a good point: Some casters can prepare completely different load out from day to day. If they know they'll be staying in the city for a while, they can invest in more 'social' friendly spells.

You take Polearm Master you can't just decide to pick Actor the next morning. You're stuck. You don't get the added versatility.

Granted this is not for ALL casters so it's not suuuper important but I think it's mostly indicative that some classes are just way too versatile for their own good rather than the otherway around.

I thought they didnt get jipped in this edition?????

Not really... I'm an idiot who's tired and confused.

But Barbarian, Paladins, Clerics, Sorcerers, Warlock and Wizard only get 2 class skill (plus two from Background) while everybody else either gets more proficiencies. Bard get two instruments and 3 skills, Druids get Herbalism Kit, Monks picks a tool or an instrument, Rangers get 3, and Rogue get Thieve's Tools AND four skills.

Not sure how they balanced these things out.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Really, I'm willing to admit balance is, on the whole, fine. I'll be honest, the Fighter's out of combat options are just too boring for me.

They don't feel like "Look at this Cool naughty word I can do now!" when you reach those levels, thy're just "Oh, more of that, neat!". Where's the pizzaz?! The evocative class feature names? The PHB Fighter almost feels like they included it because they had to and try to spend as little page count on it as possible. It makes mayonaise looks spicy.

Hmm... I get your point. Now, my question is this:

What would be something better, especially for out-of-combat?

Maybe something where a Fighter can remove a condition (like being Charmed? or Poisoned? etc.) once per short or long rest? This could be useful in combat of course, but at least has the potential to be useful out of combat as well.

Another idea is something to remove a level of exhaustion? Again, could be useful in combat, but could also be useful after a long day marching, sleeping in armor IIRC, etc.

Something "skill-oriented" might be a feature where the player chooses one ability score and can reroll a failed ability check once per long rest? Also potentially useful out of combat...

I don't know, those are just some off of the top of my head. I don't know (since I haven't had time to read the whole thread) if this is the direction people are looking for or not. Either way, if it helps, cool!

 

[Ash Mantle]

An idea I've for the fighter is to have extra modularity in its class features, namely the ability to swap out at-the-same-level class features with other at-the-same-level class features.
If you could design the fighter with the warlock chassis, that might be truly ideal.

Another idea is to have the fighter be able to delay progression in its martial abilities for an increase in spellcasting abilities, so you could add progress in spellcasting as normal but not gain your martial class feature as an example.

With the eldritch knight specifically, you could swap out the source of its spellcasting, and have cast it divine spells as another idea. You could flavour this as playing a Chosen One of the deity and being directly divinely empowered, without need for holding yourself to an oath and without need for faith.