D&D 5E Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[Lucas Yew]

Maybe merging all "non-spellcasters" (read: Fighter + Rogue) in a single class with all their features intact is a suitable answer...

And give them an improved version of the old skill percentage roll as this:
You roll d% only after you failed the initial d20 check to turn it into a success anyway, provided the target DC was meet-able in the first place.

 

[5ekyu]

Let me leave this question on the thread -

What evidence would convince you that a class is extremely underpowered at combat when not taking any combat ASI's or feats?

From where I stand - that's been set up as an impossible endeavor.

Actual play experience where all class/sub-class combos not only showed itself to be doing so little as to be more nuisance than adversary, unable to conttibute other desired combat effects and repeated dissatisfaction by those playing it in the other pillars as well. These should over time show it as not being taken as a class by players.

From a GM standpoint, if I see myself forced to rely on their non-class elements to give them "key" moments in play. Note that I use these routinely for all characters but they are also mixed in with class specific keys as well. If no class keys are sufficient and I am reduced to only using those race/background keys, its moving towards creating charscters that are " unbslsncesble" in actual play.

But one key is, and it applies for fighters, defense and durabilitymatters quite a bit and the fighter class for instance has a fairly heavy investment in defense - heavy arnor plus shield, d10 hd plus frequent con focus, second winds, indomitable etc. So, its rarely difficult to see that get its " key" moments.

 

[S'mon]

*changing remarkable athlete to give full prof bonuses to any str or dex skill, and double prof bonus to any two proficient skills. -OR- maybe something along the lines of having a climbing and swimming speed that equals your movement speed, and jumping distances increase by prof bonus.
*the first four ASI improvements also allow you to choose one saving throw you’re not proficient in, and gain that proficiency.
* with each additional ASI improvement past the first four, choose one damage type, and gain resistance to that damage (various elemental, psychic, slashing, etc)

For Champion Fighter, I'd say pretty much yes. I would
1. Have Remarkable Athlete bonus stack with Proficency
2. Have them gain additional saving throw proficiencies over time, at player's choice.
3. I wouldn't give free Resistance as that feels too magical. Rather I would suggest additional Fighting Styles or Fighting Style type bonuses, such as +1 AC, +1 to hit, and at higher level a damage bonus that was larger for two-handed weapons, say +2 1-h and +4 2-handed. Rather than Resistance to a damage type, perhaps something like no damage on a successful CON save, half on a pass, mirroring the Rogue Evasion ability.

One thing I do for all Fighters is have the TWF style give +2 attacks on a bonus action at level 11, so that it keeps up with duelist & GWF when 3rd attack gained.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Maybe I'll report my experiences. Maybe y'all are right and fighters do suck... or maybe y'all wrong and I'm awesome.

Fighters are very good. Lots of hit points, LOTS of damage. And I don't think the plural "y'all" is warranted here -- I think it's mostly just one vocal guy saying fighters suck. (Or are you speaking that fabled American "y'all"/"all y'all" dialect?) Anyway, the imbalance is not between fighters and non-fighters. That's hard to quantify anyway when the classes are playing such different games. The imbalance is between the champion fighter and other subclasses. The champ just can't keep up in the damage race.

Now, it's not game-breaking. You can play a champion and have a really good time, and maybe if you do you're a healthier player than the ones like me who notice this sort of discrepancy. But there's no reason for it to be there either. Nothing in the mission statement of "make a simple hit-the-bad-guys subclass" implies or requires that the subclass have less raw power as well as less utility.

 

[Quartz]

1. Bring Indomitable into Tier 1 at level 3 for the Champion and level 5 for the Battlemaster and EK and make it a short rest ability. Expand the use of Indomitable to any defensive roll.
2. Give the Battlemaster Unarmoured Defence at level 3 by allowing use of Proficiency Bonus instead of Dex mod when calculating AC. This is instead of the additional tool use. Allow this to apply to initiative too at a later level.
3. For the Battlemaster, drop the level 6 feat / ASI in favour of 1 free maneuver a round.
4. Add a feat / ASI at level 10.
5. Make the Eldritch Knight's spells based around a short rest.

 

[Undrave]

Well it’s a great thing there are so many other feats that give out of combat bonuses or abilities then. But you knew that already. Never mind you’re once again shifting goal posts. First it was they don’t have options, now it’s they don’t have non magical options that don’t suck (which is also untrue)

If you are saying that being a caster solves our problems with the Fighter then you're just admitting that the game effectively favors casters by giving them more options.

Saying "Become a Caster" when we complain about the Fighter kinda proves the point that the Fighter is lacking don't you think??

 

[Undrave]

For Champion Fighter, I'd say pretty much yes. I would
1. Have Remarkable Athlete bonus stack with Proficency
2. Have them gain additional saving throw proficiencies over time, at player's choice.
3. I wouldn't give free Resistance as that feels too magical. Rather I would suggest additional Fighting Styles or Fighting Style type bonuses, such as +1 AC, +1 to hit, and at higher level a damage bonus that was larger for two-handed weapons, say +2 1-h and +4 2-handed. Rather than Resistance to a damage type, perhaps something like no damage on a successful CON save, half on a pass, mirroring the Rogue Evasion ability.

One thing I do for all Fighters is have the TWF style give +2 attacks on a bonus action at level 11, so that it keeps up with duelist & GWF when 3rd attack gained.

The bonus damag for the Champion should be in the form of an extra dice, that way you get to roll it twice when you crit. If the Crit fishing is the name of the game then I feel like the Champion should get something better when they do get a crit.

 

[FrogReaver]

Actual play experience where all class/sub-class combos not only showed itself to be doing so little as to be more nuisance than adversary, unable to conttibute other desired combat effects and repeated dissatisfaction by those playing it in the other pillars as well. These should over time show it as not being taken as a class by players.

From a GM standpoint, if I see myself forced to rely on their non-class elements to give them "key" moments in play. Note that I use these routinely for all characters but they are also mixed in with class specific keys as well. If no class keys are sufficient and I am reduced to only using those race/background keys, its moving towards creating charscters that are " unbslsncesble" in actual play.

But one key is, and it applies for fighters, defense and durabilitymatters quite a bit and the fighter class for instance has a fairly heavy investment in defense - heavy arnor plus shield, d10 hd plus frequent con focus, second winds, indomitable etc. So, its rarely difficult to see that get its " key" moments.

I think you are holding an impossible evidentiary standard. It’s be like ignoring all evidence in a criminal trial unless there’s video evidence of the crime...

 

[FrogReaver]

I did check your math and it looks off to me.

Assume no ASI’s go to Str/Dex/Int or combat feats and standard array so max stat of 16/17.

Wizard: 3x 3rd level + 3x 4th level + 2x 5th level + 1x 6th level slots for fireball = 287 avg damage.

Assume +2 Dex mod and no proficiency on avg for monsters so they will fail 65% of saves and take half on 35% = 236.775 damage from fireball.

Firebolt for the next 11 rounds will yield 117.975 damage
16.5 x .6 hit prob + 16.5 x .05 crit prob x 11 rounds = 117.975

Total for our wizard = 354.75 damage.

Champion fighter... 3 attacks per round but only 1 action surge per short rest. Using a great sword for best basic weapon damage of 7 avg.

(7+3 Str) x 3 = 30 x .6 hit prob + 21 (ability mods don’t multiply) x .1 crit prob = 18+2.1 = 20.1 per attack action. With action surge + 20 rounds you get a total of 422.1 damage

So the fighter over 20 rds will do 67.35 damage more to a single target than the wizard fireballing them 9 times and firebolting them 11.

So the fighter is better at combat and that is very in-tuned or optimized in any way.

Even if you went another fighter and didn’t get the boost to vets from champion you’re still at 400.5, which puts the fighter on average 45.3 damage over the wizard over 20 rounds.

Though I’ve never had a combat go that long which is why it feels like wizard do more damage in a combat even to single targets.

So you go about changing parameters like chance to hit, chance to fail a save, not factoring in arcane recovery or action surge, and provide a more realistic number of combat rounds in the day than 20...

And you final conclusion is that wizards do more damage than fighters that don’t boost combat through ASI’s

Why didn’t you just skip all the other stuff and just say - I agree

 

[Horwath]

Best buff to the champion, and that it keeps the simplicity is giving +1 HP per level to the class and +1 HP/level regain on Second wind.