D&D 5E (2014) Fixing the fighter (I know...)

Tony Vargas · Oct 11, 2019

TheCosmicKid said:
None of the design changes you cite vary this "hard ceiling" significantly

Some of them did. 3e had the Epic Handbook. 4e, your Epic fighter could be a Demigod like Heracles, or a Legendary Monarch like Arthur or Aragorn.

TheCosmicKid · Oct 11, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
Some of them did. 3e had the Epic Handbook. 4e, your Epic fighter could be a Demigod like Heracles, or a Legendary Monarch like Arthur or Aragorn.

I said "maximum level". 3E's ELH lifted that maximum and was, let's face it, poorly written and seldom used. As for 4E... setting aside the fact that epic destinies are not a part of the fighter class, go take a second look at what the Demigod actually does. Refluff it as "Very Very Tough Guy" and it could be Conan. Probably more easily than Heracles, in fact: your Strength only goes up by 2.

Hussar · Oct 11, 2019

Put it another way.

So long as the fighter can never run faster than Usain Bolt, swim faster than Michael Phelps, shred better than Tony Hawk, hold his breath longer than a pearl diver, inspire people more than Martin Luther King without resorting to magic, a fighter will NEVER be mythic.

So long as the paradigm in D&D is that no matter what, no one can ever do anything that is beyond human without magic, then there is no way that a fighter can ever by mythic or legendary. You can talk about all the minutia you like. That's unfortunately the bottom line. A fighter will always be just a fighter.

Hussar · Oct 11, 2019

Quickleaf said:
Wondering out loud... Do you think that "hard ceiling" could be precisely part of the package attracting players to the fighter class and making it such a popular class? Playing that character with nothing but sharp steel and their wits who overcomes terrible monsters and reality-bending magic?

Might be nice to have the option though, no? Would it somehow make the class less attractive if there was some option, down the line, that turned the class into something properly mythically inspired?

TheCosmicKid · Oct 11, 2019

Hussar said:
Might be nice to have the option though, no? Would it somehow make the class less attractive if there was some option, down the line, that turned the class into something properly mythically inspired?

Since you and Quickleaf are obviously describing completely different character archetypes, might I humbly suggest they might best be represented by two completely different classes? WotC didn't even try to shoehorn Really Angry Guy and Good With Weapons Guy into the same class; trying to get Superman Wannabe Guy into the Good With Weapons Guy class seems unnecessarily difficult.

Hussar · Oct 11, 2019

TheCosmicKid said:
Since you and Quickleaf are obviously describing completely different character archetypes, might I humbly suggest they might best be represented by two completely different classes? WotC didn't even try to shoehorn Really Angry Guy and Good With Weapons Guy into the same class; trying to get Superman Wannabe Guy into the Good With Weapons Guy class seems unnecessarily difficult.

I don't think so.

The difference between "Good With Weapons Guy" and "Superman Wannabe Guy" is mostly level.

I mean, we have no problems with "Apprentice wizard barely able to tie his own shoes" being coupled with "Sorcerer Supreme" in the same class. Or, "Gets Angry Guy " and "Able to Fly Guy" in the same class. So on and so forth.

See, that's the thing. As soon as a class gets access to anything "magic", then the ceiling is lifted. Seriously, what is the justification for a flying barbarian? How is that part of the archetype of barbarian? But, since we're allowing "spirit animals" (magic by another name) then allowing the barbarian to fly isn't a stretch.

Monks work the same way as well. I start out not terribly different from a fighter, but, even with an Open Hand monk, I get all sorts of supernatural abilities, up to and including instant death attacks, because I have "Ki" (again, magic by another name).

My fighter, at best, can make 8 attacks in a round. My ranger can make 16 (extremely unlikely, but, potentially possible). But, again, my ranger can also hide in plain sight and cast several spells so, the ceiling goes away.

That's the trick it seems. Add just a soupçon of magic to a class and poof, I can do fantastic feats far beyond anything a mortal human can do.

TheCosmicKid · Oct 11, 2019

Hussar said:
The difference between "Good With Weapons Guy" and "Superman Wannabe Guy" is mostly level.

I can't help but think that Quickleaf's observation and all the other negative reaction to superhuman high-level fighters comprise a direct challenge to this assertion.

Hussar · Oct 11, 2019

TheCosmicKid said:
I can't help but think that Quickleaf's observation and all the other negative reaction to superhuman high-level fighters comprise a direct challenge to this assertion.

But, but, but, I just got told in no uncertain terms that a high level fighter already IS mythic - can solo dragons and the like.

So, if it's already mythic, then adding in a few bits and bobs to reflect it's already mythic status shouldn't be an issue. I mean, it's not properly mythic if our hero, upon slaying the dragon, then has to spend the next couple of days slogging down the mountain instead of leaping down mythic hero style to land in a three point stance.

TheCosmicKid · Oct 11, 2019

@Hussar I get the impression from your smilies that you already know your argument is facile. So I think my point stands: Conan and Heracles. Different character classes.