Fixing the Fighter: The Zouave

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Note that this rule isn't actually described anywhere else that I'm aware of, in spite of it's own cross referencing.
My experience was it never came up ... certainly had the potential to show a fighter as awesome but in practice not really.
 

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
2e I don't have the weirdly vivid recall that I have with 1e. ;) But it did have to be from the specialist's school, FWIW.
The 1e new spell when you get a new spell level...
...actually, all 1e spell acquisition not simply cribbed from spells or spellbooks was... unclear. ;)

Quite a number of things un-naturally aged you in 1e, particularly otherwise desirable/beneficial things, from Haste to Wish, as a limitation on abuse, in theory (and age-reduction magic always carried a risk of unwinding on you), to the point that the standard 1e goldenrod character sheets had separate space for Age, apparent age, and unnatural aging.
And (though I'm sure this varied wildly) once you got into mucking about with strongholds, the campaign's time frame might shift.
Funny thing, though, there were like three different versions thereof. A cursory PH treatment, CPH, and L&L, I think. I preferred CPH and used it extensively for years (from the DM side of the screen), L&L sounded pretty broken.
Personally I miss aging attacks. I can see why some don’t like energy drain because it was kind of meta. But aging was a legitimate attack from various fairy tales and myths.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The normal multi-attack of the 1e fighter was also very much unimpressive. (I hear it got better with weapon specialization rules which were tacked on later).
 

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
Most 1E monsters didn’t have the hp that 2E monsters had. And 2E monsters generally had more magic resistance than 1E monsters as you raised levels. So with weapon specialization in 2E giving fighters some more damage and magic resistance lowering the wizards it really balanced it out in my opinion. The best wizards in 2E were buffers imho. Getting past those low saves (low saves were good in ad&d) and high magic resistance was difficult.
 

Ruin Explorer

Adventurer
Funny thing, though, there were like three different versions thereof. A cursory PH treatment, CPH, and L&L, I think. I preferred CPH and used it extensively for years (from the DM side of the screen), L&L sounded pretty broken.
I think we're talking about the SPs in the FR-specific books - Forgotten Realms Adventures (a book that changed my life), Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities (very late - 1998, but we sure as fuck played the shit out of the stuff in it). Those were where D&D really "got" what a priest/cleric in the D&D universe should/could be.

Also some were broken AF but such is life.

CPH almost got it, but it suffered from the early Complete book syndrome of feeling like all the material in the book had provide objectively mechanically inferior options to the PHB. It was really weird. They got over it by Complete Bard.
 
I think we're talking about the SPs in the FR-specific books - Forgotten Realms Adventures (a book that changed my life), Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities (very late - 1998, but we sure as fuck played the shit out of the stuff in it).
Well, that'd be a fourth take, then!
Also some were broken AF but such is life.
C'est La D&D. The CPH priesthood creation, c1990, by Aaron Alston, who had worked on Champions! rather a lot, was surprisingly solid, better-balanced than could usually be expected from D&D of the era, and DM-facing, I used it not just for the PCs' priesthoods but for many of the allies & enemies - the gods got pretty involved, late-game, the priests of philosophies were pretty intriguing, I had a number of those placed, too.
 
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Ruin Explorer

Adventurer
Well, that'd be a fourth take, then!
Arguably 4th and 5th, because whilst the later three books were clearly deeply inspired by the FRA treatment, they went a lot further.

My first character in D&D, aged 10, was a Speciality Priest of Mask from FRA. I'll fight anyone who even suggests Mask is dead or ever was dead.
 

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
Birthright had good specialty priests too. Most of the later specialty priests were good. The complete priests handbook just came about early before the books started taking a different direction. Although there were still very good things in both books.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Hmmm I suppose one could give fighters better ability to use magic items in some way if you are trying trying to hearken to the past.

In 4e allowing a martial type to force a magic item to do its daily ability a second time via heroic exertion ie "spending a healing surge" is on my martial practices list. (there are a few cases where this could be problematic but they are i think rare)
 

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
Hmmm I suppose one could give fighters better ability to use magic items in some way if you are trying trying to hearken to the past.

In 4e allowing a martial type to force a magic item to do its daily ability a second time via heroic exertion ie "spending a healing surge" is on my martial practices list. (there are a few cases where this could be problematic but they are i think rare)
that would most likely just end up being used for Combat purposes. But I think the purpose of this thread was to give them things outside of combat. I kind of think the best ability that could be given would be something along the lines of leadership and kingdom building. Just my opinion. I may be nostalgic for those days of ruling domains. I really want pathfinders kingmaker for 5E. Something At least along the lines of skills in court.
 

Undrave

Adventurer
Hmmm I suppose one could give fighters better ability to use magic items in some way if you are trying trying to hearken to the past.

In 4e allowing a martial type to force a magic item to do its daily ability a second time via heroic exertion ie "spending a healing surge" is on my martial practices list. (there are a few cases where this could be problematic but they are i think rare)
Let them atune to one extra item (maybe word it as limited to weapons or armors) so they can get more non-combat items?
 
My experience was it never came up ... certainly had the potential to show a fighter as awesome but in practice not really.
Thing was, by the time it started to really matter, the monsters in question had stopped mattering...
...or stopped fighting you directly, per Tucker's Kobolds.

. I kind of think the best ability that could be given would be something along the lines of leadership and kingdom building. I may be nostalgic for those days of ruling domains.
What'd that actually do, though?

I mean, in 1e it was prettymuch a money pit and followers that couldn't much help you. In 3e, the Leadership feat gave you a reasonably useful cohort. In 4e you could gain "leader" abilities as a warlord, and there were Paragon Paths and even the likes of a Legendary Monarch epic destiny, but the focus of the game was adventuring, not running a feudal kingdom.

5e doesn't have much going on along those lines, either.

Hmmm I suppose one could give fighters better ability to use magic items in some way if you are trying trying to hearken to the past.
Always fun to hearken.

5e doesn't 'assume' magic items, though, so like oh-feats'll-fix-it, not really a clear solution.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Let them atune to one extra item (maybe word it as limited to weapons or armors) so they can get more non-combat items?
That is not a bad idea another flash back in the same vein might be to give Paladins blessings that count as magic items attuned.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yes because the paladin just doesn’t have enough already
heheh basically any blessing they get reduces their open slots it could be an ability they get already. I am actually a proponent of the Paladin being a fighter type. So let's say the fighter gets 2 extra attunements. But takes a Paladin oath at level X and gains a blessing the blessing now uses up an extra attunement. The paladin deepens their oath a bit later and the blessing upgrades now they use another attunement up.
 

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
heheh basically any blessing they get reduces their open slots it could be an ability they get already. I am actually a proponent of the Paladin being a fighter type. So let's say the fighter gets 2 extra attunements. But takes a Paladin oath at level X and gains a blessing the blessing now uses up an extra attunement. The paladin deepens their oath a bit later and the blessing upgrades now they use another attunement up.
I don’t even see a paladin as a choice, except one to walk away. They are just given gifts from the gods because they are such an exemplar paragon of virtue. Not like a bureaucracy can teach that lol. I laugh at the concept of paladin having knightly orders. Paladins are not knights. They would most likely be someone like Joan of Arc that came out of nowhere. Imho. Sorry Sir Roland and the knights of Charlemagne. I still love your poems. Camelot had some paladins, but most of them were knights.

basically paladins come out of nowhere. There isnt a school for them.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I don’t even see a paladin as a choice, except one to walk away.
Classes are big things at some levels I do not think we have to have separate things mechanically for these.

Arguably You cannot walk away from who you are -> There would be no walking away if it wasn't a choice.
(That said there indeed may be no walking away though I think of those as the avatar/paragon style concepts).

The oath bound hero was where that old 1e paladin if you act unlawful / go against your code / change your alignment / you lose your power, and become "just" a fighter etc came from.

The big examples of oath bound heroes actually had conflicting oaths in each case they were characters like Lancelot (oath to crown and queen), Samson (marriage and divine), Cu Cuchulain (hospitality and totem)
 

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