D&D 5E Fixing the Fighter: The Zouave

[Undrave]

I started the 'What is a Level 1 Fighter' thread.

 

[Ancalagon]

That's not the first principle of the Fighter, at least not in 5e! Me and Blue had a debate about it and I even quoted the class description!



NONE of this tells me the Farm Boy has 'no special training'. they can be a farm boy but they have been trained to fight and are probably really good at it. The image of the 'Default Farm Boy Hero' is just a negative stereotype that people use to hold back the fighter from having more interesting class features and I don't think it's fair.

You can't be a Level 1 Fighter without special training. The same way you can't be a level 1 Wizard without any.

Level 1 should mean the same level of competency for all classes, even if the nature of their special training is different.

I COMPLETELY agree with you .... and yet....

There is a tension in 5e. On one hand, as you say, the first level fighter definitely is a cut above in level of training and fighting experience. Buuuuuuuuuut it takes so little xp to get to level two. So is it a hardened veteran or no? You sneeze and scare a sleeping goblin away and boom you're level 2. (I exaggerate yes... a bit...).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Okay so 'suck' is a strong word... More like "limit the Fighter to mundanity".

That's worse!
The Sorcerer and Ranger arguably suck, and they're not limited to mundanity in a fantasy world!

 

[5ekyu]

I believe that the first part of this statement is misleading, and the second part is incorrect.

With Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge, and suchlike, the Rogue class is almost even with the Fighter class in combat. However I do not think its an exaggeration to say that the Rogue class is about twice as good as the Fighter class at using skills.
If you wanted the difference in combat between Rogues and Fighters to reflect the difference in skill use, you should probably remove Sneak Attack.

Secondly, Fighters cannot become as good with skills as an on-par Rogue. A Fighter needs to spend both of their bonus feats (level 12) on prodigy just to match a 2nd level Rogue. A Rogue at the same level as that Fighter would still be much better at using skills, by having more expertise and Reliable Talent.

While I see you were responding to vou term a statement made, to me I take issues with some of the spin and goalposts in the thread.

To be able to play in the skills arena the fighter does not have to have the skills be as good as the rogue. It just has to have them be good enough to play key roles and be needed. Odds are the rogue is getting only a few more proficiencies- like what 8 vs 6 favoring rogue over the fighter and expertise on 4 of those eventually if the fighter seeking more skill play archetype dpends his two extra feats on prodigy and skilled, now it's more like 8 vs 10 favoring the fighter with a 4 to 1 expertise edge to the rogue. Thsts st least in the neighborhood.

To be strong in skills tho, he doesnt need to go that far. He needs to not be better than the rogue but better at different things that still matter. Backgrounds and class and one of those extra feats is enough to fo that - letting the rest of the class handle other things.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

While I see you were responding to vou term a statement made, to me I take issues with some of the spin and goalposts in the thread.

The spin and goalposts of the thread currently seem to be:
"While the classes are reasonably well-matched in combat, the Fighter is a class that seems lacking compared to many of the other classes in the other two pillars of the game. What sort of things can we suggest that would let the fighter class be able to contribute to the party in the social and exploration pillars at the same level as the Rogue or Wizard for example?"

To be able to play in the skills arena the fighter does not have to have the skills be as good as the rogue. It just has to have them be good enough to play key roles and be needed.

To be able to play in the combat arena, the Rogue does not have to have the damage output as good as the Fighter.
However I do not seriously think that many rogue players would like sneak attack to be removed.

Odds are the rogue is getting only a few more proficiencies- like what 8 vs 6 favoring rogue over the fighter and expertise on 4 of those eventually if the fighter seeking more skill play archetype dpends his two extra feats on prodigy and skilled, now it's more like 8 vs 10 favoring the fighter with a 4 to 1 expertise edge to the rogue. Thsts st least in the neighborhood.

I'd probably quibble at the numbers: I don't regard proficiency in languages, artisan tools, gaming sets or musical instruments as valuable as actual skill proficiencies. Call them half as good and you end up with 7 vs 7 with that 4:2 ratio of expertise to the Rogue. Assuming the Rogue doesn't also use their extra ASI to do the same as the Fighter.

Furthermore the Rogue has reliable talent, which acts as a multiplier on all skill effectiveness, particularly expertise: - Similar to the way the Duelling Fighting style acts as a multiplier to Extra Attack.

To be strong in skills tho, he doesnt need to go that far. He needs to not be better than the rogue but better at different things that still matter. Backgrounds and class and one of those extra feats is enough to fo that - letting the rest of the class handle other things.

We're after parity in ability to contribute ideally, not identical mechanics. Giving the Fighter the skill proficiencies to be able to contribute as much as the Rogue in the Social and Exploration pillars is very much a fallback position.
This thread is looking at ways of approaching equality without mimicking another class.

 

[Arnwolf666]

What elements of their CLASS contribute to that? Because anyone who says background and race is completely ignoring that the CLASS doesn't contribute to the non-combat pillars like the other 11 classes do.

There is more to your character that what is on your character sheet.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

There is more to your character that what is on your character sheet.

Isn't that true of every character?

 

[Garthanos]

There is more to your character that what is on your character sheet.

So what! This mantra is meaningless are you claiming other characters are prevented from this ,mysterious not on the character sheet thing?

baldersdash and hogswallow

Might as well be saying "Blame the player not the system for the system failing to provide a character of class X tools"

 

[bedir than]

There is more to your character that what is on your character sheet.

I'm confused why this is only true for Fighters.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm confused why this is only true for Fighters.

It's not.

But the vast majority of things that happen outside of combat, at least at the games I play in, is down to the player, not the character.