D&D 5E Fixing the Fighter

Maybe it's just me, but I find the 4E fighter to be pretty good. In comparison to the world around him, I'd say the 4E fighter stacks up much better (in both terms of defending and versatility) than the PF fighter stacks up to the PF world. I'd also argue that there are some very good ways (and reasons) to play a ranged 4E fighter, but my natural question to someone wanting to play a character dedicated to ranged combat in class based game would be "why aren't you choosing a class which is geared toward ranged combat?" If your answer is that you shouldn't be so bound to concept based on class, then my second question would be to ask why you're playing a class based rpg.

Some of your post doesn't make any sense and really isn't relevant to the discussion at hand.

It has already been shown that the PF Fighter interacts just find with in the PF world. It has also been shown to be able to be the most versatile class when it comes to a fighter. What does a class based RPG have anything to do with the discussion at hand? I don't want to have to play a certain class and adopt everything that goes with it every time I want a specific concept that I can achieve with one class? Now if we are talking about obtaining spellcasting then that's a different story but I don't want to have to go and take the Ranger class to be an archer when I can choose the fighter. That was 4th edition answer for everything was to just take one of the many other classes that are available if you want a certain concept.
 

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Well, back in the day, we used this thing called "role-playing" where the player talked "in character" and tried to convince the DM (also playing in character) of his position.
Thanks, but I'm pretty familiar with freeform roleplaying as a resolution method. But it seems pretty irrelevant to [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION]'s OP, which was about players of martial PCs having "fiat" abilities. Freeform roleplaying is pretty much the opposite of fiat - so if players of martial PCs are confined to freeform roleplaying, than the OP's desire is not being satisfied.

If the DM wanted to take it to dice <snip rest of sentence>
The point of fiat is that it is the player who controls things, not the GM. The player of a wizard can, for example, take things to dice by casting Charm Person.

No, a 5 foot step doesn't trigger Stand Still, but it DOES trigger Step Up (which allow you to follow a foe who makes a 5' step as an immediate action. So 5' stepping doesn't help (aside from shifting everyone 1 step over)
Doesn't it result in the squishy getting squashed?

Before, the fighter is between monster and squishy:

M
F
S

After, the fighter is not between monster and squishy:

FM
S

Or does PF not allow diagonal 5' step?

The fighter's job is not to control agro. Its to keep a foe from getting close to squishier targets.
The reason I say the Pathfinder Fighter is more versatile is because he can be a defender, a two weapon fighter, an archer, a scout, a two hander, a duelist, a polearm master, a trip expert, a disarm expert, a heavy armor expert, a light armor expert etc and he can do all of those things equally well or he can give up some of that specialization to be good at two or more of those things.
The 4e fighter can "control aggro". Can or can't the PF fighter do this? At the moment I'm confused, because one of you seems to be saying it can't ("the fighter's job is not to control aggro") and the other that it can ("the PF fighter can be a defender").

As for two-weapon fighter, two-hander, polearm master, trip expert, heavy armour expert, light armour expert - a 4e fighter can be any two or three of those things. (The one in my game is a two-handed hammer and axe expert, a polearm expert and a heavy armour expert.)

A 4e fighter can be a scout too, with light armour, DEX secondary, and a muti-class Ranger feat for Perception.

There are no disarm experts in 4e, though fighters have the best access to disarming powers (there is a 17th level encounter power). The martial archer in 4e has to be a ranger, a warlord or a slayer.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "duelist", but a 4e fighter can certainly be pretty tough one-on-one.
 

Okay. A lot to reply to. :)

I'm very confused. I can understand a caster being limited in his ability to summon the forces that bind the universe together, or channel divine energy from their Gods. I'm a pugilist, myself, and aside from being physically restrained in some fashion, I could gouge a person's eyes out all day. A wizard, at level 13 (3.5) can grapple his opponent with supernatural force, whereas I; a level one or two fighter, can do it at will.

The entire idea of a mundane class is that they can perform every one of their abilities at any time, because every living human can perform these kinds of tasks without hindrance.
The main issue with "at-will" is its limiting nature as to the sorts of effects which are balanced in the game. I'm not content with the "mundane" classes just having rather humdrum special effects.

I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree with you.
It's obvious that the Fighter should not emulate "Charm" effects (or the like) via his martial mechanics. But if the Wizard can cast "Finger of Death" or "Power Word Kill", then high level Fighters should be able to use more hardcore maneuvers like "Vorpal Strike" or "Death Blow". The Martial Damage Dice mechanic should accomodate something like that.
Yep, precisely!

Expertise Dice. Expertise Dice. Expertise Dice. Have I made myself clear?

Trade X dice, get Y ability. For the cost of 2 dice, you can blind a foe for 1d4 rounds (if opponent fails his Con save). Done. Simple.
I agree - that's a good direction, but it's got two main issues. (1) The At-Will limitation mentioned above. If dice refresh every round, the range of special effects will have to be constrained for balance reasons. (2) If you allow something dramatic like "burning" a die for an entire combat for the better effects, you're much more constrained than a caster. If a caster blows their 8th level spell, their 7th are just as effective.

What your doing is confusing the issue. It doesnt matter whether its a class ability or not. As long as its an easy to do ability, and buying non-magical equipment IS very easy to do then its perfectly fine.
Nope. That's like saying, "The Fighter is okay because of all the magic stuff he's carrying!" There's a difference between being inherently that good and just lugging around stuff.

I would not be averse to a Utility Belt-like ability, where you happen to have the right item at the right time. That could work - because then we're back to intrinsic competency rather than stocking up on gear.

Well, I guess at this point it's clear we're talking about the player rather than the character. I'm not a big believer in that approach.
Okay. Let's try and find a way to make this about the character, then.

Marvelous, the game has already given you your wish. The fighter declares "I want that barkeep to be dead now" and then makes an attack roll killing the barkeep. He has made a narrative change.
...no.

I dont really want a middle ground with 4E. That edition had zero appeal to me, particularly with how it turned fighters into resource management classes ike wizards. For me personally, that just didn't work.
That's all well and good, but it just further illustrates that Next can't be the grand compromise WotC is looking for. I'm likewise uninterested in a game that rolls back all of 4e's innovation, but would be content with a middle ground so long as it also has other new, innovative mechanics that are all its own.

Why is the fighter viewed as the problem instead of looking at the wizard?

I agree with the part I bolded. Virtually every D&D book in virtually every edition talks about how difficult it is to be a wizard. It takes years of laborious study to become an expert. It takes hard work, precise gestures, and a strong will to impose one's skill at thaumatology onto the outside world. So, why not have the way the game works do a better job of supporting what the game's story says is going on?
Yep - it's another great approach. I think D&D Next would be stronger and more flavorful if magic were scaled back considerably.

-O
 

Some of your post doesn't make any sense and really isn't relevant to the discussion at hand.

It has already been shown that the PF Fighter interacts just find with in the PF world. It has also been shown to be able to be the most versatile class when it comes to a fighter. What does a class based RPG have anything to do with the discussion at hand? I don't want to have to play a certain class and adopt everything that goes with it every time I want a specific concept that I can achieve with one class? Now if we are talking about obtaining spellcasting then that's a different story but I don't want to have to go and take the Ranger class to be an archer when I can choose the fighter. That was 4th edition answer for everything was to just take one of the many other classes that are available if you want a certain concept.


What I perceived previous posts to be implying was that the D&D 4th Edition fighter lacks versatility and that it is difficult to effectively played a D&D 4th Edition character based around ranged attacks. I find both of those things to be (in my opinion) false. I find the D&D 4th Edition fighter to be one of the most versatile defenders in the game.

I brought up classes because... well, D&D is a class based system. It seems odd to me to choose a class which is built (primarily) for melee and then ask why it's not as good as a class based around ranged combat at using ranged weapons. If your answer to that is that class shouldn't be so restricting, then I wonder why you're playing a game which is so heavily tied to the concept of classes.

If none of that is satisfactory, then I suppose I'd suggest speaking to the GM about what he's willing to do for you. I see no reason why it would be game breaking to ask if you could take the ranger class, but swap out some of the rangery stuff (spells and animal companion) for different features (perhaps better armor proficiency and some bonus feats.) In fact, the D&D 3rd Edition DM's Guide suggests doing exactly that.
 

What I perceived previous posts to be implying was that the D&D 4th Edition fighter lacks versatility and that it is difficult to effectively played a D&D 4th Edition character based around ranged attacks. I find both of those things to be (in my opinion) false. I find the D&D 4th Edition fighter to be one of the most versatile defenders in the game.

I brought up classes because... well, D&D is a class based system. It seems odd to me to choose a class which is built (primarily) for melee and then ask why it's not as good as a class based around ranged combat at using ranged weapons. If your answer to that is that class shouldn't be so restricting, then I wonder why you're playing a game which is so heavily tied to the concept of classes.

If none of that is satisfactory, then I suppose I'd suggest speaking to the GM about what he's willing to do for you. I see no reason why it would be game breaking to ask if you could take the ranger class, but swap out some of the rangery stuff (spells and animal companion) for different features (perhaps better armor proficiency and some bonus feats.) In fact, the D&D 3rd Edition DM's Guide suggests doing exactly that.

I never said the 4th edition fighter lacked versatility, I said the PF fighter was more versatile because of the sheer volume of concepts that can be achieved using the class.

You can still enjoy a class based system that allows multiple concepts to be achieved through one class so I still don't understand why you mentioned class based system. Needing to jump from class to class to achieve a concept doesn't make it more of a class based system.
 

The reason I say the Pathfinder Fighter is more versatile is because he can be a defender, a two weapon fighter, an archer, a scout, a two hander, a duelist, a polearm master, a trip expert, a disarm expert, a heavy armor expert, a light armor expert etc and he can do all of those things equally well or he can give up some of that specialization to be good at two or more of those things.

In 4th edition the versatility is not so great. Sure you can be an archer fighter in 4th edition but spamming a basic ranged attack doesn't really count.
When I see this, it clarifies how different my perspective is.

In 4e, a Fighter is (with the exception of a Slayer) a Defender - and I'm fine with that. That's the class's job, and I like classes to have jobs. Defenders just don't work at range. If you want a guy who shoots stuff and kills it at long range, there's no reason whatsoever that character has to be a Fighter, IMO. I don't see value in insisting on a ranged-weapon Fighter when other classes do the "shoot and kill stuff" shtick perfectly well.

There's builds of 4e Fighter for every melee weapon combination - sword & board, two-weapon, two-hander, polearm, flail, heavy blade, light blade, spear, etc. Heck, even grappler and "pick up whatever's laying around and weaponize it." Just not ranged. And I think that's okay. :)

-O
 

I never said the 4th edition fighter lacked versatility, I said the PF fighter was more versatile because of the sheer volume of concepts that can be achieved using the class.

You can still enjoy a class based system that allows multiple concepts to be achieved through one class so I still don't understand why you mentioned class based system. Needing to jump from class to class to achieve a concept doesn't make it more of a class based system.


The idea behind class is that each class tends to be a premade package. Most packages are geared toward interacting with the gameworld in a somewhat specific way. Can there still be various lenses inside of each package to allow the classes to be tailored to a specific players needs? Yes, and that is how it should be. However, there still are limits. If the desire is to not conform to those limits, then it makes more sense to me to play a game which doesn't have them.

The way I see it, the fighter tends to be a premade package most often geared toward interacting with the gameworld in a mostly mundane way using mostly melee means. That being said, there is quite a large amount of flexibility in the class. Just in picking feats alone there are many different lenses which can be explored. (Though I might argue that a large number of them aren't effective, and aren't real choices in the context of the game world.) That being said, choosing the fighter class and complaining that it doesn't have the same ranged capabilities of a ranger seems slightly unusual to me.
 

When I see this, it clarifies how different my perspective is.

In 4e, a Fighter is (with the exception of a Slayer) a Defender - and I'm fine with that. That's the class's job, and I like classes to have jobs. Defenders just don't work at range. If you want a guy who shoots stuff and kills it at long range, there's no reason whatsoever that character has to be a Fighter, IMO. I don't see value in insisting on a ranged-weapon Fighter when other classes do the "shoot and kill stuff" shtick perfectly well.

There's builds of 4e Fighter for every melee weapon combination - sword & board, two-weapon, two-hander, polearm, flail, heavy blade, light blade, spear, etc. Heck, even grappler and "pick up whatever's laying around and weaponize it." Just not ranged. And I think that's okay. :)

-O

The part I bolded is part of what I was trying to say.

The part that I underlined is something I'm not entirely sure I agree with. It requires a bit more work to make a ranged 4E fighter effective, but it's not something which is overly difficult. I would say that many of the 4E Defenders perform somewhat poorly at range; however, I would also say that the fighter can be surprisingly effective at range. A portion of why I say that is because of how the fighter's mark is worded compared to how it is worded for other classes, and a portion of why I say that is also because it's possible to get the fighter's damage output to levels which rival some strikers.
 

Okay. Let's try and find a way to make this about the character, then.
Alright, say we've got a player who wants to blind his opponent.

If he's a spellcaster, he either knows a spell that does this (possibly with a saving throw involved), or he doesn't. He either has that spell ready or he doesn't. This is pretty clear in the rules. I can see the appeal of this clarity.

If he's a fighter, under the existing D&D rules, he hasn't got many options (as noted upthread, PF's Dirty Trick maneuver is one approach). He has to ask the DM to make a ruling. While DM rulings like this are a part of the game, I can see where this is sometimes a problem, and rules might need to cover the situation more clearly.

So what's to be done here?

Making up a new rule to cover poking someone in the eye or throwing sand in their face is entirely acceptable in my book. However, poking someone in the eye doesn't require specialized training, like a class-exclusive ability does. Anyone can do that, or at least try and have a realistic chance of success. The wizard could do that if he wanted to. Fighters might have skill that makes them more likely to succeed at blinding someone. However, I don't see that anyone is ever likely to spend a feat or other character resource specifically on doing that; it's too specialized. Most will simply let their general combat skill (BAB or the equivalent) take care of that stuff. Moreover, having character options be that specialized creates spamming and balance problems, as others have noted.

The only reason that similarly specialized and powerful options don't necessarily ruin the game when they're in a spell is because spells have limitations. Casters run out of them. Casters have to choose which ones they learn and memorize.

However, those same limitations can't be applied to fighter characters. They don't have to learn how to poke someone in the eye. They don't have to prepare an eye poke in the morning in case it becomes useful. They don't lose the ability to poke someone in the eye after they try to do it once.

So the fighter character will never be able to exert control over the game world in the same way a wizard character can, because if a fighter had an ability equivalent to, say, glitterdust, but without the limitations of spell slots, it would be game-breaking.

One solution to this is to forget about the character and instead design the game around the player. The player can blind enemies a certain number of times or under certain circumstances, irrespective of what's happening in the game world. If the player is playing a fighter, he stabs the guy in the eye; if he has a wizard, he unleashes some sort of incantation and the target's eye is destroyed by necromantic energy. One could look at 4e's powers as a sort of mangled attempt to do this.

Another solution, which I prefer, is to design rules for the character, not the player, with the philosophy that the rules of the game correlate directly with the natural laws of the game world, but to simply do a better job of designing those rules. As you are well aware, those limitations on magical abilities often aren't very limiting, and as [MENTION=58416]Johnny3D3D[/MENTION], D&D's spellcasters have a far easier time with their magic than most fantasy fiction or even D&D's flavor text would suggest. So I think those limitations should be increased. As you are also aware, D&D has an extremely abstract approach to combat that doesn't describe actions like trying to blind someone (and excludes many other very basic actions and effects of combat). I think the rules should be fleshed out to allow for more different types of harm to be imposed on a target, and combat actions that allow them to be imposed.

Fix those systemic issues, and the fighter fixes itself, without needing to resort to the metagame route. Of course, the fighter and wizard still aren't the same, but their power in the game and their potential to involve the player in utilizing that power is far more equal.
 

The point of fiat is that it is the player who controls things, not the GM. The player of a wizard can, for example, take things to dice by casting Charm Person.

How is charm person different than making a diplomacy check, using a nonweapon proficiency, or the DM making the reaction roll? None are guaranteed fiat (even charm person allows saving throw, ruining so-called fiat for lucky rollers or barkeeps with high saves). It really sounds like the OP wants the class ability Derail Plot where he can do things just because he wants to, even if its only 1/day.

Doesn't it result in the squishy getting squashed?

Before, the fighter is between monster and squishy:

M
F
S

After, the fighter is not between monster and squishy:

FM
S

Or does PF not allow diagonal 5' step?

Well, hopefully the squishy is smart enough to move back on his turn. Seriously, is the rogue and wizard players brain dead in these scenarios? Can't they figure out how to get out of melee range while the fighter pins down the monster?

The 4e fighter can "control aggro". Can or can't the PF fighter do this? At the moment I'm confused, because one of you seems to be saying it can't ("the fighter's job is not to control aggro") and the other that it can ("the PF fighter can be a defender").

A PF fighter's job it keep foes away from softer targets. They usually do this through limiting foe's movement. They're job is NOT to force a monster to attack it while everyone else stands around whacking it. Monster's attack fighter's because a.) they hurt monsters alot and b.) the fighter has locked down its movement so that it really doesn't have any better foes in range. It doesn't do it by forcing the monster to attack him or suffer additional damage.
 

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