Fixing the Half Orc ('cause they're broken)

Khaalis · Oct 6, 2005

In our games we simply made the following additions to the Half-Orc.

* +2 Racial Bonus to Intimidate, Listen, Spot and Survival skill checks.
* Endurance feat for free at 1st level.

Granted this still leaves them as prime barbarian material but that works for us.

Li Shenron · Oct 6, 2005

If I modified the stat modifiers for Half Orcs, I would rather keep the -2 Intelligence and restore +0 to Charisma instead. Why?

- because Charisma is still defined as the general ability to persuade & influence others, whatever the way chosen (and not just through charming): generally speaking, it's the ability of having someone do what you tell him to do. The low-charisma guy is the one who stay silent in the back, or who nobody listens to.
A fierce brute is surely going to be persuasive on the average. In fact, everyone thinks you need to give HO a bonus to Intimidate to compensate. Instead, keep +0 Cha and give a penalty to Diplomacy/Perform if you want.

- because a Charisma penalty penalizes the Sorcerer class too much, and the Sorcerer concept fits savage races much more than the scholarly Wizard

- because on the party's perspective, Charisma still often ends up as a dump stat for many classes; Intelligence gives a real penalty at least in skill points to everyone

Otherwise, one could scrap all the mental penalties and give -2 Dex to compensate for +2 Str, with the reason that perhaps (Half)Orcs are a bit slow and bulky due to their muscles.

Thia Halmades · Oct 6, 2005

Except in the world of plausibility, we know that musculature acutally makes you more agile on the whole, because of the speed at which you can force your body to react. Insofar as Nyaricus' post, I'm more concerned about making Half-Orcs work in my campaign than in making specifically LOTR inspired ones. For the record, if we're using LOTR as a reference, my Ork species is far closer to the Uruk-Hai than to your average pig-nose. I'm not worried about making them campaign specific (despite that they were modified because of my campaign) any more than I want to make them BALANCED, which when they start off, they aren't. So my primary motivation here is to fix them to the point where they work.

So far, a lot of the suggestions that have been posted (and thanks to all of you for said posts) have used specific elements of the original design I coughed up, with special thanks to Borlon & Spatzimaus for the inital thoughts and corrections. The more I've read what y'all think, the more I lean towards leaving my version as is, although it isn't the "exact" design of other racial packets. In that sense.

- The variant I posted is using STR or CHA for Intimidate checks, whichever is higher (odds are its strength, but I have to say it for the record). So that's settled.

Originally Posted by Li Shenron
- because Charisma is still defined as the general ability to persuade & influence others, whatever the way chosen (and not just through charming): generally speaking, it's the ability of having someone do what you tell him to do.

This is a phenomenal point, but by RAW, it's also your natural charm; I'm arguing that most people wouldn't find Orcs charming. However, I'd be willing to concede the +2 STR is better balanced by the -2 INT with no CHA loss. That would have a greated impact in a skill-heavy campaign and still leave many avenues open for the racial package to persue. Point well taken, Li Shenron.

Originally Posted by Khaalis
* +2 Racial Bonus to Intimidate, Listen, Spot and Survival skill checks.

Done and done. Also, excellent points. I'll still keep my 'may take Scent at 1st level' option open, because it is powerful, but is moderately offset by forcing you to take it early and put yourself in a position to use it. May also help offset the skill loss if taken that way. Hence, what we currently have (based on the input that I liked, basically) is this:

+2 STR, -2 INT; Orcs are preternaturally strong, but often have difficulty reaching conclusions swiftly, and prefer action to consideration.

+2 Racial Bonus on Intimidate, Listen, Spot & Survival checks. Orcs may use their Strength bonus in lieu of their Charisma bonus for Intimidate checks (whichever is higher).

Orcish Blood (if anyone is willing to share their material on how they incorported this, the rest of us would appreciate it. As I said in my original post, unless you go to specific lengths to make it work, this is worthless, but retained).

Dark vision (see PHB/SRD)

Endurance Feat (automatic at 1st level)

Scent Feat - this is considered an unrestricted feat for Orcs, but must be taken at 1st level (character creation).

Discuss.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

Felix · Oct 6, 2005

Nyaricus said:
WotC seems to shun a "partial" bonus [ie one that doesnt give +1 to a stat mod, or +2 to a stat] but for half-races it would make sense, since they inherit half their heritage from each parent). Comments?

The idea behind avoiding +1/-1 ability adjustments is not allowing players to manage their initial stats so they gain a benefit, but recieve no penalty.

Starting stats thus:
15
14
13
12
10
8

And you have a race that gives +1 STR and -1 INT

You put your 15 into STR and your 13 into INT.

You have now managed your stats so that your race gains you a +1 to your STR bonus, but nothing happens to your INT bonus. You have recieved a bonus without incurring a penalty. That is why WotC avoids +1/-1 ability mods, and I agree with them on this score.

---

Also, in LotR (book, not movie) the word "Orc" was interchangeable with "Goblin". JRRT also mentioned, as Sam and Frodo are making their way from Cirith Ungol to Mt. Doom, that there were different races of orc... the trackers and the fighters to be specific.

So you cannot think that LOTR only has one kind of orc. For DnD purposes, the races of goblin, hobgoblin, orc, half-orc, and bugbear (and maybe others) might all be caught under the LotR title of "Orc". If that's the case, no need for house rules on LotR's account... you already have your variation in the race.

Nyaricus · Oct 7, 2005

Felix said:
The idea behind avoiding +1/-1 ability adjustments is not allowing players to manage their initial stats so they gain a benefit, but recieve no penalty.

Starting stats thus:
15
14
13
12
10
8

And you have a race that gives +1 STR and -1 INT

You put your 15 into STR and your 13 into INT.

You have now managed your stats so that your race gains you a +1 to your STR bonus, but nothing happens to your INT bonus. You have recieved a bonus without incurring a penalty. That is why WotC avoids +1/-1 ability mods, and I agree with them on this score.

Well, since it is all just luck of the die when rolling ability scores, this shouldnt matter. Also, i said in my arguments that should they be sturdy? yes. As sturdy as they are strong? no. I dont think that giving them +1/2 HP, +1/2 fort save, etc will be breaking the race as a whole, and since you are as likely going to roll all even numbers compared to any other type, this isnt such a bad idea IMO. As since many arrange ability scores as desired, you example of what happens with + and - scores already occurs, just on a larger scale (+2 to a score, and not +1 as with my example).

Felix said:
Also, in LotR (book, not movie) the word "Orc" was interchangeable with "Goblin". JRRT also mentioned, as Sam and Frodo are making their way from Cirith Ungol to Mt. Doom, that there were different races of orc... the trackers and the fighters to be specific.

So you cannot think that LOTR only has one kind of orc. For DnD purposes, the races of goblin, hobgoblin, orc, half-orc, and bugbear (and maybe others) might all be caught under the LotR title of "Orc". If that's the case, no need for house rules on LotR's account... you already have your variation in the race.

I am well aware that there are a variety of orcish sub-races in Middle-earth. Goblins (a name which is [as mentioned] interchangable with "orc") are from Moria and surrounding areas, Uruk-Hai from Mordor (and at the time of the War of the Ring, from Isenguard), Orcs from the Misty Mountains (and other places) etc. Half-breeds include half-orcs (mainly from human/uruk-hai stock) and goblin-men (which obviously come froms goblin stock). Unfortunately, since the names "goblin" and "orc" are interchangable, we cannot always grasp exactly which which is which; and can become confused by it. My outline of orcish races and sub-races from Middle-earth is rudimentary at best, but we can draw some ideas of "which which is which."

IMC, although influenced heavily by tolkien, does have its own flair and flavour. My half-orc as is is basically a conglomeration of much of the Middle-earths assmuptions for half-orcs and their natures, and thus (admitantly) combines some conflicting themes. A goblin-man would likely live underground in Moria, and thus have darkvision and would likely have a class like ranger (maybe fighter or rogue) as favoured class. A half-orc from human/uru-hai stock would have low-light vision, since neither parents live underground, but the uruk-hai's orcish blood would still improve the sight of its children, and rogue or fighter would be favoured class (this being a players choice > the Southerner was a rogueish fellow, but other half-orcs were obviously trained soldiers). A half-orc from orcish stock (savages in the mountain passes, etc) would probably have darkvision, but he may not, and his favoured class would probably be barbarian.

your comments have made me re-look at what i am doing with the half-orc seriously, and some re-vision is necessary IMO. Tolkiens work (love it or hate it) created most of the common-day medeval fantasy themes and assumptions that many take for granted. That said, the basic "big dumb savage" is one of a few facets which the orcish races posses. Othes are a warrior-race and rogue-ish race (depending on breed).

-------

one last thing. In D&D, there are bugbears, hob-goblins, goblins and orcs, but these races all have their own "made-up" (as in 'D&D made-up" not "Tolkien made-up") niches that they fill. Infact, hob-goblin, bugbear and goblin all mean the same thing (arguably, kobold does as well) from european folklore; it was TRS and WotC which gave them their D&D incarnations. But, since Tolkien was originator of present-day fantasy, i would argue that Lotr and the hobbit are two books that would be indispenable in defing what is an orc and what is a goblin.

UniversalMonster · Oct 7, 2005

I think Half Orcs got the shaft but I'm at a loss for the best way to fix. As a GM a couple of years ago I allowed the Scent feat for free and that seems like maybe a bit too much.

Nyaricus · Oct 7, 2005

Peter said:
I think Half Orcs got the shaft but I'm at a loss for the best way to fix. As a GM a couple of years ago I allowed the Scent feat for free and that seems like maybe a bit too much.

welcoem aboard! we will see what we can do

hope you stay tuned.

Raduin711 · Oct 7, 2005

I think Half-Orcs lag a little bit, but not by that much. The stat bonuses I believe are fine as-is. (fits in with the dmg's suggested bonuses and penalties), and while it restricts the half-orc from spellcasting classes, the gnome is likewise restricted from any kind of fighting class. (that's just an opinion, but most of the gnome warrior builds i've played with seem to be good for little more than giant-killing.)
The rest of the half-orc's abilities are lagging behind the other classes, though. I think a +2 bonus to intimidate seems to be an almost necessary addition, and rounds out the race.

Aus_Snow · Oct 7, 2005

OK, here's my very basic, deilberately generic (read: adaptable and easily modified) half-orc of quite some age now:

Half-Orc: +2 Str, -1 Int and Cha. 2 extra skill points at 1st level, 1 extra skill point at 2nd, 4th, 6th etc. +1 racial bonus to Intimidate and Survival skill checks. Darkvision. Orc Blood. Human Blood.

It's what I do with all generic half-races, when not just using templates (which is preferred): I make them as simple and as 'half and half' as possible.

To make a little more sense of it though, here's my very basic, deilberately generic (read: adaptable and easily modified) orc, also moderately well-aged:

Orc: +4 Str, -2 Int and Cha. +2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Survival. Darkvision. May use the Orc Double Axe as though it was a martial weapon. +1 racial bonus to attack rolls vs. Elves and Humans (yes, Humans - but could be Dwarves or whatever).

Note: these are from memory, as I don't have them with me right now. Here's hoping that they're more or less correct!

They've been OK so far (though there hasn't been the opportunity for either to be used as PC material at this stage), but I'd be interested to hear how they might help/not help this thread, what people think of them (and the basic half 'n half idea) generally, and whether there are any alterations that spring to mind.

edit --- fixed the Str bonus for Half-Orcs (it was incorrectly listed as +1.)

Felix · Oct 7, 2005

Nyaricus said:
Well, since it is all just luck of the die when rolling ability scores, this shouldnt matter.

Those stats are the standard 25-point buy array, and you miss the point.

Nyaricus said:
As since many arrange ability scores as desired, you example of what happens with + and - scores already occurs, just on a larger scale (+2 to a score, and not +1 as with my example).

It does not happen on a larger scale with +2/-2. When you add or subtract 2, you will raise or lower the ability bonus by 1. In a +1/-1 system this is not the case... it is possible to gain a benefit without suffering a drawback.

When ever you have odd ability scores, you can manipulate the ability mods to a greater degree than you otherwise could. +2/-2 does not allow this manipulation, regardless of how the ability scores are generated. That is the point.

------

Nyaricus said:
your comments have made me re-look at what i am doing with the half-orc seriously

Glad to hear it. I'm all for House Ruling, but only when the same effect cannot be satisfactorily achieved within the system. And as far as Tolkeinesque orcs go, there's plenty of variation already.

Misty mountain orcs ---> DnD Kobolds
Moria orcs ---> DnD Goblins
Saruman-bred orcs ---> DnD Half-orcs
Barad-dur Vanguard Orcs ---> DnD Hobgoblins
Minas Morgul Vanguard Orcs ---> DnD Bugbears
Mordor regular infantry orcs ---> DnD Orcs

Tease those with class levels, and you've got yourself some nice variety of "Orc".