Fixing the Half Orc ('cause they're broken)

[Aus_Snow]

It does not happen on a larger scale with +2/-2. When you add or subtract 2, you will raise or lower the ability bonus by 1. In a +1/-1 system this is not the case... it is possible to gain a benefit without suffering a drawback.

When ever you have odd ability scores, you can manipulate the ability mods to a greater degree than you otherwise could. +2/-2 does not allow this manipulation, regardless of how the ability scores are generated. That is the point.

I disagree.

What happens with a character with all even ability scores? Then, you can 'min/max' (manipulate abilities) with +2/-2's as much as you like, surely?

So what you're claiming only holds true with odd numbers. . . and +2/-2's affect even numbers in exactly the same way.


Don't forget too, that d20 has built in rules for ability score increases. So, having an odd or even number at 1st level is really neither here nor there, if you see what I mean.

 

[Thia Halmades]

What happens with a character with all even ability scores? Then, you can 'min/max' (manipulate abilities) with +2/-2's as much as you like, surely?

So what you're claiming only holds true with odd numbers. . . and +2/-2's affect even numbers in exactly the same way.

I think you're missing a key to understanding this. Regardless of what your current ability modifier is, you are guaranteed to have it adjusted by a racial modifier under RAW, and it's designed that way intentionally. The way you describe (+1/-1 instead of +2/-2) allows players to get something for nothing. Full text below.

Felix is absolutely right. The point isn't what you manipulate, but how it is manipulated. In other words: if you have an odd numbered stat (say, 17, and I'm reiterating here, but bear with me) and we stick it into Strength, we have a few ways to go.

I'm fairly certain Halfling is a -2 STR race. Right? If not, they are for the moment. Anyway. Halfling. -2 STR from 17 is 15. Right? Right. That means they went from a +3 to a +2. Bam. If the score were originally 16, and we subtract 2, again, we go from +3 to +2. If we have a Half-Orc in a similar position, it doesn't matter if his STR is 14 or 15; it's going to go up by 2, and thus gain a full stat modifier bump (+1).

What the guaranteed +2 adjustment does is force a 1 point ability score modifier adjustment, to explain it long hand. If we only subtract one from 17, we're left with 16. And the final ability score modifier is still +3. By having all stat modifiers for racial adjustments goverened by a -2/+2 mechanic, the designers insured that people wouldn't intentionally manipulate their stats so they would land favorable adjustments (such as +1 to a 15, and -1 to a 17) without paying full price for the modifier.

This same logic is applied across the board; it doesn't matter if you put an even or odd stat in that slot; what matters is that the ability score modifier is adjusted. In that sense you can logistically "ignore" your stat and look purely at your modifier. Ultimately, if you break the system down, the stat is just a means to an end. I don't care if one of the party Paladin has a 22 CHA; I only care about his bonus on die rolls and adjustments. So that may be what's skewing your thinking. The stat only matters insofar as it creates a base modifier for skills related to it, hence almost all bonuses or penalties must directly affect the modifier, not the stat itself.

This is why I'm on such a tear about Half-Orcs. The bonus they get to Strength, total, is +1 to hit and damage. The penalty for being denied both types of arcane casting (Sorc. & Wiz) is too high. In addition, they are "losing" 4 skill points, and one every level thereafter from the INT hit, as well as having no CHA to speak of? This is why I adjusted my version from the original post to the current one (+2 STR, -2 INT). Much as I hate to gimp their skills, STR is a definate advantage. Add to that the option of Scent & free Endurance, as well as the Intimidate bonus, and the race makes sense for me.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Aus_Snow]

I think you're missing a key to understanding this.

No, but I think you are.

Most significantly, the fact that ability scores are not static. 1st level isn't everything, when considering min-maxing (well, manipulation) and the like.

YMMV.

 

[Spatzimaus]

No, Aus_Snow, they're right. With +2/-2, you're guaranteed to gain a +1 modifier on one stat and a -1 modifier on the other, no matter what values you start with, even OR odd. With +1/-1, you might or might not get each bonus/penalty, depending on whether you had even or odd.

It's not a big deal if you're rolling dice for stats AND are required to roll them in order. But if you allow the player to place them himself OR use a point-buy system, this can be abused. And that's why the core system doesn't allow +1 or -1, because all generation systems need to be balanced.

And yes, stats aren't static, but until you reach Wish levels, you're typically only raising one or two stats, not all of them. So if that +1 or -1 is in a stat you're not continually raising, the problem won't go away at higher levels.

 

[Aus_Snow]

No, Aus_Snow, they're right.

No, Spatzimaus, they're not.

See how it's simply a matter of opinion?


But don't worry, I did read your post - and Thia Halmades'. And hey, I see what you're both trying to say. I just don't agree with it.

If people want to avoid the use of +1/-1 modifiers - or +3/-3 etc. - then I have no objection to their decision. On the other hand, for those who do wish to use them, I don't see any compelling reason why they shouldn't. . .even if that's only me!


edit --- I was very much off with the odd/even thing (but not the rest, IMO). Please excuse the lack of focus being applied at the time - that'll hopefully teach me to over-multitask. Gah.

 

[radferth]

IMHO the best way to balance half orcs is to change the -2 cha adjustment, but give them some sort of penalty (-2, -4?) to diplomacy and similar checks vs. civilized non-orcs. As was said earlier, it makes more sense to me to have them penalized in the wizard class than in sorcerer (and Green Ronin's shaman). I could even see half-orc bard who specializes in drumming or chanting (someone's got to lead "Grond! Grond! Grond!"). On the other hand, I don't usually change them at all, and I have no shortage of people willing to play them (unlike gnomes or half-elves, who seem to have few takers for me).

 

[Nyaricus]

the only reason "half bonuses" dont work (ie +1 or +3 to a stat) is because the D&D system does not support them. for example, +13 in str technically gives you +1.5 to hit, but the ruels as they are do not support this. the only example i can give where this is applicable in even the most obscure of ways is in Unearthed Arcana, where the saves and BAB from multiclassing are talked about, and you can give the partial bonuses from each to be at the same level (read: even playing ground) as single class characters. Other than that, WotC has not given us anything to deal with those "useless" odd numbers in ability scores.

Thank you to those who have shown support in my position on +1/-1 ability scores. These arent game breaking, and as Aus_Snow said, "first level isnt everything." While it is a truth that giving +2/-2 etc to an ability score will give it a definite modifier, what you roll (or point buy) is still affected. The fact is, in D&D, all ability scores are equally important. Yes, even Charisma. The bad thing is, most of these are not well role-played, and thus creates a problem.

Also, a half-orc sorcerer or wizard is still plausible, even with -2 for each score. All you need is a 19 in either to cast 9th level spells, and since the maximum you could still get 16 (at level one), this is very likely that you will get 9th level spells by 17th level (IIRC). Powergamers argue otherwise, but a cloak of charisma can go a loooooonnng way.

Also, as i stated before, we shouldn't be shoe-horned into using the TSR's and WotC's races if we want to use Middle-earth races (and since the orc is based off of this, i dont see why we couldn't add in more flavour). Sure, they could work in a pinch, but the fact that the orc as is has some design flaws (from a design POV (as in they are under-powered, but if we referred to a Tolkien POV, then also from flavour and mechanics POV (as in they are now warped from the original creatures).

That being the role of "holder of loot until PCs come to take it after killing"?

clever, but just because they are low-level fodder doesnt mean that we cant strive to make them better and more proper mechanics-wise. That is the purpose of this thread, isnt it??

PS, thank you felix for defining a few more of the races of orc in middle-earth. i havent bothered to look through my notes (much) and books as of late; but i dont aggree with all of your comparisons (ie, Misty Mountain orcs being related to Kobolds; this is harly the case, except for the clever traps, etc; they are more like the standard orc in nature). Also, in case you (and others) missed the point, I was basically stating that orcs as well as half-orcs needed to be re-designed. You cant just leave out one thing while changing the other (referring to half-orcs and orcs).

lets see what other comments this and other posts bring, shall we . . . .

 

[Felix]

On the other hand, for those who do wish to use them, I don't see any compelling reason why they shouldn't.

They allow benefits without associated penalties.

If that isn't compelling, then you'll eventually go down a road that brings a 3e version of Skills and Powers.

 

[Nyaricus]

They allow benefits without associated penalties.

If that isn't compelling, then you'll eventually go down a road that brings a 3e version of Skills and Powers.

There are penalties > -1 to an ability score. This will only be exploted by powergamers and min-maxers; and even then, it will only pose a problem when the DM and the PC's have conflicting veiws about how D&D should be played (meaning having fun and just playing the game as opposed to being a power-gamer/min-maxer). Sure, no-one wants to have a crappy character; but the fact is, if he is that bad (or if the DM is putting the group against threats/challenges that are simply too much) then either his/her character will die, and a new one will be rolled up, or the DM will have to adjust they dificulty level of the game he is residing over. +1/-1 to ability scores are problems only if you let them become problems.

Furthermore, let me re-iterate

first level isn't everything

My statements stand.

 

[Feldspar]

Second, Elves start with all kinds of insanity, easily making them the proto-typical "best" race in the game (I have five players in this campaign; three were built as Elves).

I don't consider Elves the best at all. I rate them behind Dwarves and humans. A Cha penalty may or may not hurt you, but a Con penalty hurts a lot of different classes. Darkvision is better than lowlight, stonecunning is in the same ballpark as auto detection of secret doors, etc. In our campaign we've swapped the Dwarves Cha penalty for Dex; we find it easier to imagine a charismatic Dwarf or a Dwarf sorceror than a tumbling, acrobatic, contortionist Dwarf.