Fixing the Sorc.

[Visigani]

I don't think lack of flavor is a fault in a class - it's a boon to the creative player!

Agreed. We should strip "Dungeons and Dragons" from the game title, just call it Lines and Numbers. We can dream up whatever we want! Call it whatever we want! We need no theme, we need LESS theme!

Let us remove Paladins from the game. Too much "theme" there. We could make due with just having fighters with a strong religious flavor. They don't need "spells" or "Smite Evil" or "Divine Grace". Those are simply impediments to more creative players who don't wish to be caged in by such things as "Class Features".

 

[Shin Okada]

I am standing on "Sorcerer needs no more fixing" side.

In my experience, both wizard and sorcerer have their own edge.

Wizard has much better at learning and using skills. But having high Cha has it's own reward.

Regarding the use of metamagic feats, except for Quicken spell, sorcerer simply wins. A sorcerer with good selection of spells known and metamagic feats tend to use almost all of his spell slots effectively. While a wizard tend to leave some of his prepared spell unused at the end of an adventuring day.

And, PHB2 Alternative class feature and various Sorcerer only spells in later supplements have really bumped up Sorcerer.

Also note that, when a character cannot have enough down time during a campaign, wizard class loses almost all the edges the class meant to have against sorcerer.

When a wizard cannot take time to add spells on his book, he will end up having only 4 spells known per spell level, with fewer spell slots than a sorcerer. And in such a campaign, he cannot enjoy making magic items at all.

Sorcerer and Wizard are two different classes and have different strength and weakness. When someone says Wizard is simply better than Sorcerer, I say that is wrong.

 

[Duke Arioch]

I don't think sorcerer needs "fixing". But, some choices developers made are a bit strange. 2+int skills for wizard is okay, but sorcerer suffers greatly for this. 4+int would help. K(the planes) not on a list is funny, as sorcerers (in most cases) are connected to extraplanar beings, as at least one of their ancestor was extraplanar. If I started throwing fireballs on a whim, or could tap into extraordinary speed/abilities, I would: a)seek out my roots and b)find out anything about my new-found ancestry.
Also, I understand how unending studying can affect your hardiness. But sorcerers are nomads, always in search of more power/understanding of forces that fuel them, and as such more prone to wander around and experience the world both in the best and the worst ways. That should have made them hardier. d6 hit die seems more in-tune than d4 IMHO.
Also, instead of familiar, I would grant them one of the heritage feats and, maybe, one more (corresponding) at each lvl a wizard gains meta/casting feat. How about that for an incentive to stick to the class for a while longer?
I know these are not necessary, as sorcerers (as well as all casters) are powerhouses compared to martial (non Bo9S) classes. But that is the fault of those classes' designs IMO.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

One house rule I tried out was to give each Sorc have one of the DCv1 Bloodline feats* for free. Since those add 1 spell per level, that also means I have to pare the class back one spell per level to keep them balanced.

Works OK- same number of spells, more flavor.



* without barring them from taking the Bloodline or Heritage feats from WotC sources, since they are mechanically different.

 

[irdeggman]

I think the sorcerer only lacks some level based class abilities.

They are pretty bland in that they don't have any - sure they get new spells and can swap out old ones and a familiar but no real class features as they progress. I don't think modifying the skill list helps this any.

Perhaps a couple of bonus feat levels with a choice of which feats they can choose (meta magic, heritage feats, escew materials). Maybe a bonus feat at 5th, 9th and 15th levels), these levels correspond to levels when a wizard gets spells of new level (but only about 1/2 of them).

I don't see why any flavor of the class I have seen would lead one to think diplomacy should be a class skill (other than it being Charisma based).

 

[emanresu]

Im standing on Sorcerer make better adventures, no book! They just know what they can do. We also have Sorcerers unable to make magical items unless specifically trained to do so, they just cant all of a sudden know how. They are born with spells they can cast. But they get eschew materials (there level in gold pieces or less), Familiar at 1st, at 5th silent or still (and are not charged the +1) at 10th silent or still spell at no cost when used.

 

[Jack Simth]

I would say that sorcerer should be able at certain levels be able to select a spell from any list they desire and may treat it at as an arcane spell added to their list known.

They can do that now. How is poorly-defined, but they're the only spellcaster which includes the modifier "primarily" when describing what spell list they draw their spells known from in the class description. They're also worded very differently from other classes in the spell acquisition section of the magic overview.

When a wizard cannot take time to add spells on his book, he will end up having only 4 spells known per spell level, with fewer spell slots than a sorcerer. And in such a campaign, he cannot enjoy making magic items at all.

There are ways around this limitation if you know you'll be facing it. Collegiate Wizard doubles the spell acquisition rate, for instance. Likewise with crafting: the Wizard needs 8 hours rest, and 1 hour of preparation to have his complement of spells. Crafting takes 8 hours per day of work, can be done in any environment that would let you prepare spells, and the days needs not be consecutive - which means you can rest up, prepare spells, adventure for six or seven hours, craft for eight hours, and repeat the cycle, all in one 24-hour day. Never stop adventuring.

 

[Dandu]

All charisma skills? (UMD, Intimidate, Handle Animal...ect too?)

How do you think Centaurs are made?

Cha mod to will save (force of personality [feat]), if you did not know this already.

Force of Personality only applies to mind affecting spells.

No offense but you just packed the Sorc with bonus feats that anyone can take, great choices imo, it just does not make the sorc unique.

What would make it unique enough?

 

[emoplato]

They can do that now. How is poorly-defined, but they're the only spellcaster which includes the modifier "primarily" when describing what spell list they draw their spells known from in the class description. They're also worded very differently from other classes in the spell acquisition section of the magic overview.

The point is they are still an arcane caster, they can't select divine spells because they are divine. The rules very much imply that you can't get spells from another list unless you take the class or you have an ability that says you can. This could be used to negotiate with a DM on maybe Wu Jen or Bard specific spells, but negotiation only not self-rule and most certainly not divine. My point is that they could make any spell they wish into an arcane spell known. It would be only at certain levels and would act like an extra spell known, so there is actual incentive to maybe continue the class.

 

[Jack Simth]

The point is they are still an arcane caster, they can't select divine spells because they are divine. The rules very much imply that you can't get spells from another list unless you take the class or you have an ability that says you can. This could be used to negotiate with a DM on maybe Wu Jen or Assassin specific spells, but negotiation only not self-rule and most certainly not divine. My point is that they could make any spell they wish into an arcane spell known.

Right. That's what they can do now. Take a look at the Bard's spells entry: "A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. "
And the Cleric's Spells entry: "A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list."
And Druid: "A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list."
And the Paladin: "Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. "
And the Ranger: "Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list."
And the Wizard: "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."
(emphasis added)
Exact same wording each and every time. With one exception:
The Sorcerer: "sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list" (emphasis and emphasis added)

Nobody else has that extra word in their Spells entry. Nobody. The Sorcerer entry even has an entire sentence that's not found in anyone else's Spells entry, that strengthens that "primarily": "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. " - nobody else has this clause at all.

Unlike essentially everyone else (even in splats - about the only other two exceptions I know of are the Archivist and the Chameleon), the Sorcerer is not limited to their class spell list... although what's required of going out of it isn't defined.