Fixing the Sorc.

[emoplato]

When a wizard cannot take time to add spells on his book, he will end up having only 4 spells known per spell level, with fewer spell slots than a sorcerer. And in such a campaign, he cannot enjoy making magic items at all.

Do you remember specialization? A base wizard knows all cantrips and has two spells per level of wizard+int. modifier worth of first level spells. One level of specialization adds one spell known per wizard level and has one more spell slot for each level. So a minimal specialist wizard would know 65 spells of their choice, spell level matters not. A similar focused specialist would have 85 with the same spells per day as a sorcerer.

 

[emoplato]

Right. That's what they can do now. Take a look at the Bard's spells entry: "A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. "
And the Cleric's Spells entry: "A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list."
And Druid: "A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list."
And the Paladin: "Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. "
And the Ranger: "Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list."
And the Wizard: "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."
(emphasis added)
Exact same wording each and every time. With one exception:
The Sorcerer: "sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list" (emphasis and emphasis added)

Nobody else has that extra word in their Spells entry. Nobody. The Sorcerer entry even has an entire sentence that's not found in anyone else's Spells entry, that strengthens that "primarily": "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. " - nobody else has this clause at all.

Unlike essentially everyone else (even in splats - about the only other two exceptions I know of are the Archivist and the Chameleon), the Sorcerer is not limited to their class spell list... although what's required of going out of it isn't defined.

It is dependent on what is dropped by someone that has done the work for them then yes they can possibly do it. This doesn't say they can do it themselves, again the DM has to be nice. So, if there is none of that they are indeed limited by the list.

 

[Jack Simth]

Do you remember specialization? A base wizard knows all cantrips and has two spells per level of wizard+int. modifier worth of first level spells. One level of specialization adds one spell known per wizard level and has one more spell slot for each level. So a minimal specialist wizard would know 65 spells of their choice spell level matters not. A similar focused specialist would have 85 with the same spells per day as a sorcerer.

Per day, not known: "A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day."

It is dependent on what is dropped by someone that has done the work for them then yes they can possibly do it. This doesn't say they can do it themselves, again the DM has to be nice. So, if there is none of that they are indeed limited by the list.

Please elaborate: Where do you get the "dependent on what is dropped by someone that has done the work for them" and the "This doesn't say they can do it themselves"?

 

[Shin Okada]

Do you remember specialization? A base wizard knows all cantrips and has two spells per level of wizard+int. modifier worth of first level spells. One level of specialization adds one spell known per wizard level and has one more spell slot for each level. So a minimal specialist wizard would know 65 spells of their choice, spell level matters not. A similar focused specialist would have 85 with the same spells per day as a sorcerer.

Actually, specialized wizards gains extra spell slots only. They do not gain extra spells known.

 

[emoplato]

Please elaborate: Where do you get the "dependent on what is dropped by someone that has done the work for them" and the "This doesn't say they can do it themselves"?

It means the qualification you pointed to was dependent on looking at other sources already prepared in a matter in which they can use. They can't convert divine to arcane and other arcane spells need to be prepared in writing in order for them to learn it. They just can't select them out of a game book when they level up. They are dependent off of another source in the game to get them spells outside their list.

 

[emoplato]

Actually, specialized wizards gains extra spell slots only. They do not gain extra spells known.

Derp, sorry, my mistake

 

[Empirate]

Wow, that's news: WotC included an unnecessary qualifier in one of their bits of rules text: "primarily". So what's your argument? Sorcerers CAN choose any spell they damn well want to (even though there's a specific Sorcerer spell list? Hint: it's in the back of the PHB).

Sounds like "Druids aren't immune to magical poisons, because Paladins are immune to every disease, even magical ones!" to me...

 

[Jack Simth]

It means the qualification you pointed to was dependent on looking at other sources already prepared in a matter in which they can use. They can't convert divine to arcane and other arcane spells need to be prepared in writing in order for them to learn it. They just can't select them out of a game book when they level up. They are dependent off of another source in the game to get them spells outside their list.

That's not quite what I meant. Source please. I've been quoting the work under debate.

Wow, that's news: WotC included an unnecessary qualifier in one of their bits of rules text: "primarily". So what's your argument? Sorcerers CAN choose any spell they damn well want to (even though there's a specific Sorcerer spell list? Hint: it's in the back of the PHB).

Sounds like "Druids aren't immune to magical poisons, because Paladins are immune to every disease, even magical ones!" to me...

And you clearly didn't read the entire argument, as I also noted that "primarily" is reinforced later on in the text with a sentence unique to the Sorcerer. Additionally, Sorcerers (and Bards) are handled differently from the other casters under the spell acquisition section of the Magic Overview. If it was just one word once, sure, it could be dismissed like that... but it's not.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

The Sorcerer: "sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list"...

I've understood this to refer to the small but significant body of Sorcerer-only spells that Wizards do not have access too.

...Now, I haven't researched the publication dates of when Sorcerer-only spells were released compared to the PHB so I cannot verify that was the author's intent, but that's how I've understood the text at the present.

 

[Jack Simth]

I've understood this to refer to the small but significant body of Sorcerer-only spells that Wizards do not have access too.

...Now, I haven't researched the publication dates of when Sorcerer-only spells were released compared to the PHB so I cannot verify that was the author's intent, but that's how I've understood the text at the present.

The 3.0 wording was different (3.5 used a boilerplate spells section, where the first sentance was just a slightly modified echo of the same thing, while 3.0 had them all done individually), but the distinction has been there since the 3.0 PHB, which is the first work on the subject in 3.X. 3.0 PHB, page 50 "These spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer and wizaed spell list (page 168), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study"