Flails as Shield By-pass weapons...

[Nyaricus]

So, as introduced in From Stone to Steel (and what initially got me into this line of thought...), flails have that unique design in which they can 'reach around' a shield to smash down on an opponent. As it happens, I am completely revamping the entire 3e weapon list and I thought it would be neat to add this in as a rule. Here's what I have:

Horseman's Flail / Light Flail (light) 1d6 x2
Footman's Flail / Heavy Flail (one-handed) 1d8 x2
Great Flail (two handed) 1d12 x2
Mace-and-chain (exotic one handed) 1d10 x2

SPECIAL: Weapons in the Flail Weapon Group have the special Shield By-pass property. When fighting an opponent using a shield, their shield bonus, including any magic enhancement bonus, does not add to their AC, as the flail wraps around and completely by-passes their defense.

Does that seem reasonable?

cheers,
--N

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Now playing: Bathory - Nordland

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

At the very least, it should require the flail to be equal or greater -- masterwork flail to trump masterwork shield, +3 flail to trump +3 shield.... -- and even then, I don't think I like it. Most people already complain sword & board is too weak in 3E, why introduce something that further spits in its face?

 

[Draz]

Yeah, your rule is too strong.

Flails may be better than other weapons, against shields, but let me ask you this: you are going to be defending yourself against a veteran flail-fighter. Do you want a shield, or not? Even if it's only partially effective, it's still better than nothing.

I'd prefer a Maneuver (ToB style) that lets a flail attack bypass a shield, or something like that. Maybe even a feat that lets flail attacks gain a +2 bonus against shielded opponents (so that magical shields, at least, can still be useful against a flail-wielding opponent), or something like that.

 

[Nyaricus]

Yeah, your rule is too strong.

Flails may be better than other weapons, against shields, but let me ask you this: you are going to be defending yourself against a veteran flail-fighter. Do you want a shield, or not? Even if it's only partially effective, it's still better than nothing.

Aye, a good point. That got me thinking, and then this next part...

Maybe even a feat that lets flail attacks gain a +2 bonus against shielded opponents (so that magical shields, at least, can still be useful against a flail-wielding opponent), or something like that.

...gave me an idea:

SPECIAL: Weapons in the Flail Weapon Group have the special Shield By-pass property. When fighting an opponent using a shield they gain +1 circumstance bonus to hit, as the flail wraps around and by-passes their opponents defense. If the flail is magical, and that character is facing an opponent using a magical shield, they can overcome the shields enhancement bonus up to the flails enhancement bonus; ie a +2 Heavy Flail would treat a +3 Heavy Shield as only a +1 Heavy Steel shield, negating two points of it's magical enhancement bonus, in addition to the +1 circumstance bonus.

How does that sound?

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Now playing: Candlemass - Under The Oak

 

[Neil Bishop]

I would argue that the ability to bypass a shield basically brings the flail into the exotic weapon category. As such, a couple of feats might be the way to go in a chain like this:

1. Martial Weapon Proficiency: flail
2. Weapon Focus: flail
3. Bypass Shield: +1 to hit with flail against opponent with shield (maybe have a minimum BAB requirement of, say, +4)
4. Improved Bypass Shield: ignore shield bonuses when flighting with a flail (minimum BAB of +8 or so)

The earlier feats are, of course, meant to be prerequisites for the latter feats.

 

[Clay_More]

I actually worked on something similar, but it was in the guise of feat-chains that gave special powers to certain types of weapons, and as you I worked with flails as weapons that could overcome shields.

I don't think a +1 bonus to hit vs. shield-wielding opponents would be too much, especially if you're working on giving all and are giving other weapons equivalent or better bonuses. Then you could always include a feat or similar that allows a flail-wielder to overcome greater bonuses, maybe give a flail-wielder a greater bonus when trying to disarm a shield. It all depends on how the relative power of the other weapons though.

 

[Sigurd]

Combat abstraction

I think you run into a level of 'realism' the rules are not designed for.

Flails are already a quite decent weapon for tripping and damage. I'm willing to believe the weapon can be used to wrap around a shield - From Stone to Steel rocks! By the same logic it might also be trapped, even grabbed if it can be slowed. It has very little piercing ability and a relatively necessary wide arc of attack.

For the sake of simplicity, I'd bundle the good with the bad and play the rules as written. Do you know a way to punish it for not being able to make a stab movement in tight spaces?

Unless the underlying combat system is more detailed from the ground up it is very difficult to add realism on the surface. Your rule would add another detail to check in battle as a 'special case'. I'd avoid it for game play reasons.

Sigurd

Course thats only my .02 . Try it and tell us what you find.