Flaming Sphere

[Oni]

Sustaining the Flaming Sphere is a minor action. However there is also a standard action option in the sustain section. If you use a standard action to make another attack with the flaming sphere, do you need to spend a minor action in that round as well to sustain it, or does the standard action serve that purpose? I ask because they put the move action option in the effect portion and the standard action option in the sustain portion, which seems odd to me.

 

[HeirToPendragon]

If you use a standard action to make another attack with the flaming sphere, do you need to spend a minor action in that round as well to sustain it?

Yes

 

[Mengu]

You have to spend a minor action if you want to sustain it.

Whether you can make an attack as a standard action before you sustain it or not, seems to be a question of debate. Since it's under the sustain Minor action, I'm assuming after you sustain it, you can make an attack. So you can't attack with it and then decide you won't sustain it. Clear as mud?

 

[DrSpunj]

You have to spend a minor action if you want to sustain it.

Whether you can make an attack as a standard action before you sustain it or not, seems to be a question of debate. Since it's under the sustain Minor action, I'm assuming after you sustain it, you can make an attack. So you can't attack with it and then decide you won't sustain it. Clear as mud?

FWIW, while I can see this interpretation I allow our Wizard's Player to attack with it before he determines if he's sustaining it or not. There have been situations where it was really cool & fun to do so (which, if something isn't unbalancing, is what I generally always try to go with).

One I can remember is the Wizard using his Move to get the Sphere away from the recently toasted minions and adjacent to the BBEG. He then used his Standard Action to attack with it successfully. He chose, however, not to sustain it since the Sphere was also parked right next to two allies who's turns were coming up before the BBEG's turn. Since the party was several rounds into the fight with the tide definitely turned in their favor, one or both of the allies really didn't want the fire damage from the Sphere.

Since it takes a Standard Action to attack with the Sphere the Wizard is giving up something substantial to make use of it before it disappears. Doing it this way kind of reminds me of summoned creatures in 3e that could attack on their last round before going poof.

Whatever is deemed most fun and fair should be fine either way you play this. Enjoy!

 

[NMcCoy]

If you don't sustain a power, it ends at the end of the turn in which you could have sustained it but didn't. Attacking and then not sustaining is perfectly fine.

 

[Caliban]

If you don't sustain a power, it ends at the end of the turn in which you could have sustained it but didn't. Attacking and then not sustaining is perfectly fine.

Technially, it depends on whether or not attacking is listed as part of the Sustain entry. You only get the stuff in the Sustain entry when you sustain it.

 

[NMcCoy]

Technially, it depends on whether or not attacking is listed as part of the Sustain entry. You only get the stuff in the Sustain entry when you sustain it.

Oh, excellent point! I was thinking primarily of Flaming Sphere, but there are indeed many powers where repeating the attack is part of the sustain action.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Oh, excellent point! I was thinking primarily of Flaming Sphere, but there are indeed many powers where repeating the attack is part of the sustain action.

The thing is, with Flaming Sphere, the additional attack is described in the Sustain Minor entry, but uses a separate standard action:

Sustain Minor: You can sustain this power until the end of the encounter. As a standard action, you can make another attack with the sphere.

So in round 1, the wizard casts Flaming Sphere and attacks with it.

In round 2, unless he takes a minor action to sustain the Sphere, it will expire at the end of his turn. Can he take the standard action described in the Sustain entry, even if he never takes the minor action to sustain the power?

Could he have taken the standard action described in the Sustain entry in round 1 by spending an Action Point, even though you can't Sustain a power in the round you use it?

Let's say he does take a minor action to sustain the power in round 2. Can he take a standard action in round 3 to attack with the sphere without taking a minor action to sustain the power in round 3?

If Flaming Sphere were "Sustain Standard: Make another attack with the sphere", it would be simple. But since it's a standard action described in a Sustain Minor block, it's more complicated...

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

The thing is, with Flaming Sphere, the additional attack is described in the Sustain Minor entry, but uses a separate standard action:

Sustain Minor: You can sustain this power until the end of the encounter. As a standard action, you can make another attack with the sphere.

So in round 1, the wizard casts Flaming Sphere and attacks with it.

In round 2, unless he takes a minor action to sustain the Sphere, it will expire at the end of his turn. Can he take the standard action described in the Sustain entry, even if he never takes the minor action to sustain the power?

No. See quote below.

Could he have taken the standard action described in the Sustain entry in round 1 by spending an Action Point, even though you can't Sustain a power in the round you use it?

No. See quote below.

Let's say he does take a minor action to sustain the power in round 2. Can he take a standard action in round 3 to attack with the sphere without taking a minor action to sustain the power in round 3?

No. See quote below.

If Flaming Sphere were "Sustain Standard: Make another attack with the sphere", it would be simple. But since it's a standard action described in a Sustain Minor block, it's more complicated...

-Hyp.

It's not complicated at all.

If the minor action to sustain is not used, the effect written after the sustain minor action cannot be used.

PHB 278

Starting on the turn after you create an effect, you sustain the effect by taking the indicated action.: a standard action, a move action, or a minor action. (You can sustain an effect once per turn.) Some effects do something, such as attack, when you sustain them. A power's description indicates what happens when you sustain it or let it lapse. At the end of your turn, if you haven't spent the required action to sustain the effect, the effect ends.

No ambiguity.

One must sustain to get the sustain effect. Sustain can only be done once per round in the turn after the power is created.

 

[Trebor62]

Flaming sphere sustain instructions a bit unique as Hypersmerf pointed out. Pg 278 on sustaining is a general rule which can be trumped by the specific, i.e. sustain as minor until the end of the encounter, as a standard action you can make another attack with the sphere. Applying this literally, the wizard would conjure the sphere attack with it, next turn he can sustain it as a minor action, and make another attack as standard action, that turn or later and dealing damage to anyone starting there turn next to it in the mean time. But after that another attack it would be a rolling hot foot, that could be moved as a move action to deal damage to those starting next to it.

I am not saying that I think that this is what they intended, but applied literial I think this is the result or close to it.