flaming sphere

[peregrijn]

In another thread we were discussing counters to the flaming sphere (killer combo).

I have some questions on the spell. The description clearly states it can be extinguisehd by any means that would put out a normal fire of equal size (3ft radius).
That being so, 'create water' (0 lvl orison) is the obvious choice to counter this spell. It creates 2 gallons of water per level and it can be delivered in a 'downpour'.

The problem is how much water you need to put out a normal 3 ft radius fire. 2 gallons would go a long way but I doubt it is enough to extinguish it completely (to the last ember). So how 'extinguished' does the fire have to be? Second, while 4 or 6 gallons should be enough to put it out, it'll only do if you get it spot on, you can't just dump it on the entire square the sphere's in, you wouldn't have enough water (in my opinion at least).

So how do you target a flaming sphere?
The problem is that it's either completely immobile (stopped) or under direct control of it's caster. What sort of hit do you roll in what circumstance? How do you equate for the increase in water volume? What AC modifiers would a immobile sphere get and what would a moving sphere get? Can the sphere's caster evade?
On the moving of the sphere, it can be moved EVERY move equivalent action by its caster, so it could be moving all round long, so if the caster ended his turn with moving the sphere without having it end up in an occupied square, it would still be considered moving up to the start of the casters next turn, right? Just as a moving character would be?


edit; spelling

 

[peregrijn]

second part

I've cut the questions in two sections, for ease.

This deals with casters control. Tthe sphere moves in what ever direction you point at. How does this work if you can't see the sphere anymore ? Someone close to the sphere could have cast an obscuring mist or an inventive type could have used an illusion (silent image) to make a 'wall of mud' or 'wall of earth' rise up between the sphere's caster and the sphere. (as you see I'm sticking to low level counters to the spell).

Can you direct a sphere you can't see? How much control do you have? Are you pointing at the mist (the edge of the area) or towards something in or behind the mist (important in determining which way the sphere goes)? How would you have it interact with the illusion (assuming the caster of the sphere fell for it)?

 

[maddman75]

Well, referencing the SRD, I see that the spell creates 2 gallons/level, so we are talking about quite a bit of water. I would certainly let it douse a flaming sphere. However, this is not a common spell, and has few uses outside this application.

As for control, I'd let you give it commands about where to go. For instance, if an illusionary wall popped up, you could simply command it to 'roll north' which it would do until it hit an obstacle. Anyone know any hard and fast rules on this?

 

[guido1999]

I'm pretty sure you have to see the sphere to move it.

Also, I would not require an attack role to be made in order to target the sphere with the water. To me, you are using the water to as an area effect.

How much water is needed is tricky.

The spell states that 1 cubic foot of water is 8 gallons. The sphere takes up a 5ft square (it's 6ft in diameter, but I'm rounding down for simplicity purposes). I would think that a downpour of water at least 1 inch thich would be sufficient to douse the flames (again, these measurements are based solely on my own opinions and can be tweaked as you see fit). Picture a 1 inch thick sheet of water that covers an entire 5 ft square. So how many cubic feet of water is in a 5ft x 5ft x 1/12 ft area? 5 x 5 / 12 equals approximately 2 cubic feet of water or 16 gallons. Meaning you would need an 8th level wizard to create that much water. If this seems too high for you, than you can fiddle with the dimensions as you see fit. I basically tried to use easy numbers to illustrate my point and to come up with a way for a horizontal sheet of water that would downpour into an entire 5ft square in order to douse a 6ft diameter ball of fire. Pretty easy, huh?

 

[peregrijn]

guido>
I agree it takes some individual fiddling with numbers as to what seems appropriate. The sphere however is exactly that, a sphere. It's burning on all sides. Would such a thin layer of water be enough to extinguish all of the fire, including the sides and bottom of the sphere (an it's not an insubstantial fire sphere, it has substance)? If not would the sphere flicker back to full fire and if so, how fast?
On the other hand, the spell description says 'normal fire of similar size'. Should we go with this or take the abnormal shape of the fire (spherical) into account?

A high enough caster could simply swamp the square with water, but at which point would only specifically targetted water be able to extinguish it?
The create water spell seems to indicate you can create the water into a specific container, making it pretty exact. But in combat conditions? Wouldn't it need a hit roll then?


maddman>
form the spell description:
"a burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point..." Commanding the sphere seems to be dependend on the caster actually and specifically pointing to where the sphere has to go.

 

[peregrijn]

Hmmm, it just struck me, you can interpret the way the sphere moves as in,'you point towards something and it moves towards it' or as compass directions.

It makes a big difference if there's an object between you and the sphere. In the one case you'd be pointing north (away from the object), in the other towards the object.
Still the question remains, are mist and illusions objects you can point at or through?

On the compass interpretation, if an opponent is exactly between you and the sphere, you'd have to point 180 degrees away form the opponent (and sphere) to have it move towards the opponent. I don't know but that somehow seems silly.

 

[guido1999]

I don't think an attack roll is needed, because the water is being used as an area attack spell.

Usually fire is put out by soaking the fuel source, i.e. what the fire is burning, with the water. In this case there really isn't a fuel source, since the fire has been created from magic. I would definately treat the sphere as a "normal fire of similar size," sort of like a 6ft rolling campfire or something. I puposely left the amounts of water needed to douse the sphere ambiguous, and merely provided a formula, so that it could be specifically tailored by the individual DM based on how much water he felt was necessary. If you want to rule the it takes 1 cubic foot of water to douse 1 cubic foot of fire, then all you would need to do is calculate the volume of a 6ft sphere (approximately 113 cubic feet). That's 904 gallons of water! Meaning you would have to be a 451 level caster! However, flaming sphere is a 2nd level spell and can be cast be a 3rd level wizard. Create water is a 0 level spell, but with the calculations I initially provided, you would need to be an 8th level caster casting a 0 level spell to douse a 3rd level caster casting a 2nd level spell.

Balanced? That's a matter of opinion.

 

[shurai]

I think we can all agree that this falls squarely in the list of situations the DM has to interpret, because specific rules for it would be, well, silly. So, with that in mind, I offer the following thoughts:

It makes for good roleplaying and a more interesting concept of magic that a magical fire is put out by magically conjured water. In general, I also feel that D&D doesn't have enough counterspelling and similar activity, so I try to encourage it when it can happen.

I don't think balance ought to be an issue, unless your campaign has lots of Flaming Spheres for some reason.

Those specific-use Orisons/Cantrips are pretty useless for the most part, so letting people do clever, useful stuff with them in combat situations is one of the things I try to encourage in my games.

So, for a game that I was running, the only question is how much water is needed to put out the flaming sphere, and whether its success ought to be randomly determined. I'd solve both problems at once by requiring the caster of Create Water make a Spellcraft check, DC 20- (2/gallon). So the effective odds are about 5/20 + 5/20 per cleric level (given that Spellcraft and the gallon output both go up each level).

Remember that just raining on the sphere probably isn't the best way of putting it out. If it were me, I'd probably create a hollow hemisphere of water a few inches above the sphere and let it cover the whole thing and run down the sides.

-S

 

[peregrijn]

That's it. A skill check.
Make it hard for low levels but 'garantueed' succes if you've got enough levels. And how hard or easy it is is a DM decision.

I do agree that clever 'counterspelling' tactics should be encouraged.

Does anyone feel that flaming sphere is overpowered? It does allow you 2 magical 'attacks' per round a 2d6 damage each.
That's a second level spell which could do up to 4d6 damage PER CASTER LEVEL.
Sure, it's no garantueed damage, but even if you 'hit' half the time you still do 2d6 damage per caster level. That's still al lot for a second level spell.

 

[Bauglir]

From the SRD:

If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 2d6 points of fire damage to that creature. (The subject can negate this damage with a successful Reflex save.)

So only 2d6 per round.

Definitely not overpowered though. Sure it can IN THEORY do 2d6 x caster level, but most combats only last a few rounds, and generally speaking you're better off with a good fireball..